Stop treating them like animals!!

just pointing out that like Corgi said about yelling, striking a dog isn't always abuse. sometimes it is a useful training tool THAT WORKS & WORKS FAST. i try to teach my dogs not to bother stock through controlled repetitive exposure. it generally works but every once in a while you get a hard headed dog that doesn't want to listen. most of those listen the first time you smack them upside the head. three different times is the most i've ever had to do it.
i don't totally trust shock collars, it is electricity & it doesn't take much amperage to kill or injure something. so i use a good smack, IF NECESSARY. is it old fashioned, yep. does it work, YEP. in the grand scheme of things is a smack better than getting shot for harassing stock, oh hell yeah.
if you want to wade into the middle of 4 or 10 or more dogs from 2 or 3 "packs" brawling to seperate them and tell them no no, have at it. been there, done that, got the tee shirt. ever since & forever more, i'll stand back and lay into the whole mess w/ a rope or a hotshot. works faster, makes a longer lasting impression & most importantly no new bite marks on me.

as for the OP, she'll have a better relationship w/ her mom if she stands up for her dogs & herself and insists on visits on her terms.

Total truth, Pops. I wish people could get that through their heads.

So, you're saying those are the only two choices? Getting shot or smacking the dog? Hmmm...I see. I wish people would get it through their heads that no...those aren't the only two choices. There's training and prevention and management. Oh, what a novel thought.

again hunting dogs are pretty smart, independant & stubborn. SOME DON"T respond to the easy way and have to learn the hard way. the hard way is pretty much a choice between smacking or shocking. i don't trust shocking being totally harmless. i know that a smack (not a fight to the death as hard as you possibly can even if it breaks your own fist punch), will make them listen when you say NO where they didn't listen the dozen times before. and yes that is better than getting shot, or stomped to death by a horse or range bull, just like getting a shot is better than getting the mumps & the dangers that represents.
now i'm not as experienced as some folks, but i have owned, trained, helped train or handled close to 300 dogs in my life some for hunting, a couple for herding & some for other things. i understand there is no such thing as a cookie cutter approach. some dogs will be super biddable &hardly ever need any correction. some will be stubborn and need a lot of corrections. some will be soft natured and only need a stern word. some will be a little harder & need a tug on the lead or a hand on the muzzle. and some will be super hard & need a smack to get their attention to pay attention to what you're saying.
not every dog needs it, heck most dogs don't but a few do, unless you choose to give up and let them misbehave. the important part is figuring out which dogs need it & how best to go about it.

And some of it depends on what you're doing with the dog. If I have a dog who is too difficult to control on stock, I can simply find something else to do with the dog. OTOH, if I owned a cattle farm, I would have to take whatever means necessary to get control or always have the dog locked up.

You've never had a dog hell bent on chasing down stock, have you?

Oh really? LOL!

Not only did I have horses and lived on a commercial dairy farm, (Carnation)but I have and have had (for most of my life) wild life, deer specifically that Lyric and dogs before him were hell bent on chasing until I did some predation training, using a faux prey, a bucket, a rope, and a helper, along with beefing up his recall to be excellent in all situations. If I hadn't cured him of that, I could have gotten in some real trouble, as it's illegal to let your dogs run down deer, plus it's dangerous. Jose` chased a bear twice, which freaked me out, so his training needed to be beefed up and/or I have to be more careful not to let him outside without a leash if there's a bear around. He's hell bent too and it is hard to get a reliable recall on him that lasts a long time....constantly needs refreshing.

I've had a variety of dogs/breeeds all my life and have lived in places where there are lots of other animals most of the time.

So sure, if that's your only choice, (you can't lock up your dog, you can't train your dog) it's better that they aren't killed. But I'm not convinced there's a lot of information imparted to a dog by slugging him in the jaw other than "my owner is scary and I don't trust him/her." Unless it's superbly timed, within a few seconds of the unwanted behavior, adequately intense, and happens every single time the offense takes place, it is not likely to be very reliable.

If you lived along side a freeway, would you slug your dog in the jaw every time he stepped off the property? (better that than get run over) Or would you use a leash or put up a reliable fence?

This is completely not the point of the OP, so how it got to this derailment, I don't understand. The OP doesn't go for the way her mother treats her dogs and I don't blame her. I don't like that kind of rough, disrespectful treatment (verbal or physical) toward dogs. They don't understand it. It's not their language.

To the smacking a dog. Personally I would rather someone use a shock collar (omg I know.. but hear me out)

A smart dog will learn that its only 'dangerous' to chase stock when a human is around. Or the dog could learn to distrust their owner/handler. With a shock collar you can zap the dog from a distance so you are not part of the potential fall out.

But yes I would suggest training first. It is possible, even for those hell bent on chasing. It does take a lot of effort though, so yes for people not willing to put the hours in its better to manage, find another job etc and if thats not possible to punish vs death.

I agree. For the reasons you gave and also because if my dog is chasing, odds are I'm not close enough to smack him anyway. If I am, it most likely means he's on a leash, in which case I have other ways of stopping the chase.

I have 'smacked' at a distance with Dekka. I was longing a horse and she decided to help. I said 'out' which means leave the ring.. she went pppppptttttttt at me and kept trying to bite the horse's fetlocks. I gave her a pop (not hard) with the longe whip.

But then I tied her up for a while when I longed and worked on 'out' with out such exciting 'prey'. (for some reason me longing a horse is really exciting) but to be honest she is much less likely for me to need to say 'out' if I am holding a longe whip. So she learnt it was dangerous to bite the exciting prey if I am holding the device that can smack at a distance.

The look on her face when I pick up the longe whip is also pretty heartbreaking.

Ever since getting into dogs, which was the same time as I got out of horses, I no longer own a lunge whip.

Exactly Dekka. You make good points. If the punishment doesn't happen immediately, (within a couple seconds)the dog will probably not associate it with the deed. How can he know what behavior you're targeting when he's since, done 3 or 4 other behaviors? And like you said, if punishment only happens in your presence, then at best, the dog will only refrain from the behavior in your presence. Even with shock collars, dogs can still associate the presence of their owner with the pain. Dogs aren't stupid and they're so use to tying things to humans (after all this time evolving with humans) that it's really hard not to pair punishment with humans if humans are at all present.


Exactly.

I don't see any value or any reason to strike a dog. I don't agree with it, never will. If training is not an option, then there's management. If that's not going to be done, the dog is in danger and shouldn't be in that environment at all.

We talk about not letting DA dogs off leash in a dog park with other dogs. Or trusting a dog off leash near a busy road. We talk about not leaving dogs unsupervised with children because it has happened that dogs have maimed or killed children. We hear that it is not wise to leave two Pit Bulls alone in a house together unsupervised because if they get in a fight, it can be really terrible so people in the know use crates or otherwise separate them when gone. We use muzzles on dogs that bite people or keep them on a leash so they can't. Responsible people keep their dogs locked up at those times their triggers are present.... or on a leash say, if they chase kids on bikes or they train them not to. We prevent our dogs from killing our chickens or rabbits, goats or sheep with cages or fences for those animals or some kind of physical barriers. This is all management. I see no reason why the same can not be applied to dogs that chase any livestock or any animal or human. If I'm on a hike and my dog chases a deer, in spite of my confidence in his past training, I realize that either I need to beef up the training so it is sufficient or keep him on a long line, preventing him from chasing a deer. BTW, Even I would be more in favor of a shock collar than using my own hands to strike my dog. But there are more reliable ways to really train (or manage) than with the use of punishment and with less potential for associated fall-out.

My feeling is that if a dog is hell bent on predation, then he needs a safe and alternative out-let for this drive. He must have specifically....sufficient prey-burning 'exercises' to reduce the tension in him. And otherwise prevented/diverted from the real thing.

you can't hunt a dog on a leash & muzzling them puts their life at risk.

The OP isn't hunting with her dog. rofl1:

Okay....So, do your dogs chase aniamals that they're not hunting or not suppose to chase?

That's not so easy when the dog is actively used for hunting or herding.

You turn on the switch, you tell the dog it's a good thing to chase prey. Sometimes turning it off or turning it on selectively ~ chase this but not that; chase now but not later ~ can be problematic.

Instinct tells Ares to ignore the horses and go for the cows. When cows are an option. Take away the cows and he'll happily try to herd horses. And rarely are horses OK with that idea. It usually ends up in a vet trip for the dog. So if Ares were ever loose around horses, I better have a **** solid way to stop him from running them. And leashes break, so I need an alternate solution and I need it to not rely on a leash.

Not that I'm OK with hitting a dog - ever, except in cases of an aggressive dog trying to attack and no other way to stop him - but it's not always as simple as management.

As for the original topic...well, you've been here long enough to know that derailment is a Chazhound sport.

I let my dogs chase squirrels, but not deer. They get it. Lyric, on a couple of occassions began to chase several deer on a hike. I called him and he came. (of course, he had had loads of training) One time, I think I had to call him twice. He was then controlled until the deer were long gone and then released to chase squirrels. Lyric was insanely into chasing animals, including other dogs on our property...he was very drivey. I guess I just don't get it. I haven't hunted with dogs, but I've known people who did...my Dad, his friends, other friends... and they didn't have any trouble. What kind of dogs are these...what breed that they can't learn a good recall? Of course...hardly anything is easy. And maybe I'm not getting all of this. But that still doesn't sit well with me to slug a dog in the face...sorry...jmo. If I were into hunting and couldn't do it without slugging my dog in the face, I'd stop hunting with those dogs. I just don't think we should have the right, as a more powerful species... to beat up dogs or fight them with each other on purpose, for that matter. Maybe I'll go off and join PETA. LOL.

I do, and therefore doubt a smack upside the head would do a whole lot. She'd learn not to come near me after she chased something, but she'd still chase.

I've seen dogs get kicked by horses (as in, the stock they are actually chasing), shake it off, and go right back at it. If I were going to use physical punishment on a dog for chasing stock, I would have to agree with Dekka on the shock collar.

As for the OP--if someone in my family treated my dogs like that, they would not be welcome in my home, period.

I agree with Pops on this one...

Eh, I've seen it many times. If your in the right place at the right second, it works. It's not about the dog coming toward you. If the dog is hell bent on chasing stock, they aren't thinking about *where* they are going, they just chase. So if you get up in there and stop it, it's not about them coming toward you at all.

Also, if you've been around herding breeds WHILE THEY ARE WORKING, you know that a smack doesn't affect them much. Really. It makes them stop and think, most of the time.

I'll also throw out there that I wouldn't judge something because we wouldn't do it in a different situation. It's not all black and white, IMO.

The rake has many uses.

Also, Blaze can walk/be perfectly fine around our sheep working stick. It's not like it comes out and he cowers. It comes and and he knows we're either going for a walk or going to work.

CP, I've never had the chance to use a rake. LOL Is that what you used? I've become a huge fan of a wand, lately.