You can't train enthusiam

I attended my first Rally class last night just to watch. I had a trainer say to me, she could train behaviors but could not train enthusiasm. She also said the more enthusiastic, the easier to train.

YouTube - Rally

Hmm.... I disagree on both statements.

You CAN train enthusiasm, the trick is finding what the dog likes. For example, my dog loves jumping and running, so that's why we do agility.... she is never as enthusiastic as she is in agility class, it's like a completely different dog; and she wasn't like that in the beginning, it took a few weeks for her to figure it out. On the other hand, we also did a little bit of obedience for competition, and she just didn't seem that into it.... precision and self control are not her strong suits,so she was not very enthusiastic about it. I do believe, though, that if I had trained it differently she probably would've been happier about it.

One of my service dogs comes to mind, too, this golden retriever that I was trying to teach to retrieve. He just didn't really like doing it, for whatever reason, to the point where, after a few months of training, if he saw a dumbell he'd go hide under a table. I then started back at the very beginning of training, worked EXTREMELY hard to make it EXTREMELY fun and easy for him, and finally it clicked. After that he was one of my most enthusiastic retrievers.

That said, enthusiasm does have some drawbacks. I know some dogs that are so excited about working that when their owners just want to relax and chill out, the dog still wants to work, and will find his own games to play.... such as shredding up the rugs or figuring out how to get into the garbage can.

A lot of people think that service dogs need to be extremely smart and driven to do their job.... we get so many calls about dogs that people think would be awesome because they're "always busy" or "need a job." But the fact is, the less enthusiastic dogs are actually much easier for our recipients to live with and generally make better service dogs. As long as you can find what motivates them and use that to your advantage.

I am with you lizzy! I have seen enthusasim brought out in dogs through 'fun' things. I agree if the person is a correction or 'balanced' trainer though. I can see that being a problem for them.

I peronally LOVE enthusiastic dogs.. but they are not always easier to train. If you can get enthusiastic with good impulse control.. then you are golden!

I disagree with that trainer too. I've seen dogs that were hum drum due to "balanced" and "correction" based training come alive and become very much more enthusiastic with their owners.

I personally like dogs that have some vim and vigor, enthusiasm when training. When channeled in the right direction, they do everything faster, seem to be more driven to "get it just right." Everything they do, they do with gusto. I like that. That's how my Doberman was. I don't know that it's easier to train them necessarily. There are lots of factors and variables which make or break training....or which determine the ease in which they learn.

OMG seriously! But it still takes a good handler to build that and work to keep it, JQP (and most of my clients) definately need easier dogs.

I love the poodle prance! lol

I would have to agree with Lizzy, Dekka and Carrie.

I'd look for a different trainer.

Maybe she means something else....temperament. Maybe she means you can't make a dog inherently different than it is, like markedly different because it's personality just isn't that way. I mean, my Chihuahuas are less energetic than Toker is. They're just more laid back. I can get them revved up, silly, enthusiastic. But Toker will perk up at the drop of a hat and can turn into a maniac. Yeah, you can't train a dog to have a completely different personality as in giving it a command and it instantly becomes a high drive Border Collie when it's a sloth-like something else. (am trying to think of a breed that is really sloth like) LOL.

Anyhow...maybe that's what she means. She must mean something other than how it sounds.

As far as the enthusiastic being easier to train...maybe she means that a dog that is more interested, eager, engaged with his owner is easier to train versus one that is lazy, off it lala land, not able to pay attention, not interested etc. If that's what she means, then yeah, I would have to agree.

I just got to thinking...that she must mean something different than we're seeing it...maybe.

Meg would like to argue that you can train enthusiasm.

I read a great article a couple of years ago - Julie Daniels, I think? She talked about training for drive, not tolerance. I loved the article, and I think about it often when training. If you seek out that "OMG I can't wait to do this! Look at me! I'm doing it!" attitude, the enthusiasm you can create is near miraculous.

Then there is that adding in the self-control Dekka mentioned

Yeaahhh that's where I am right now. Mia is SO enthusiastic about everything but she has no attention span and no impulse control lol.

Meg is sure a good example of bringing out the "beast" in her. You did fantastically bringing her out of her shell. So, yeah...I think you take take a less than enthusiastic dog and bring out the interest and enthusiasm. But again...that trainer may mean something a little different, like creating the drive to a high extent in a dog that just doesn't have that much drive. That's why certain dogs are cut out for certain jobs better than others. But as far as rally or any number of endeavors, I think enthusiasm can be built up through good handling.

Thats exactly the issue I am having with my dog, impulse control and being able to cap his drive. High drive is great for TEACHING a dog a certain task but reliability becomes an issue if the dog doesnt have any impulse control. Proofing sit/down stays, outs, heavy distractions ect can become very difficult. I was at a dog trial a few weeks ago, surrounded by those "crazy" Malinios' and my dog was the only one acting like a nutcase. He just CAN'T contain himself, some I blame on his maturity level but alot has to do with impulse control. And it bugs the crap out of me. Gotta be careful what you wish for. :yikes:

I think that some dogs are just naturally enthusiastic and with others it may take some effort to bring them out, but it's definitely doable.

We recently had a conversation on here about TDI. I think it was lizzy that said, the dog should "enjoy" meeting people to do this kind of work. That has had me thinking ever since.

I think we all have more enthusiasm for certain activities we enjoy and my guess is that is what the trainer was talking about. I think the trainer might have been talking about the natural ability/interest a dog possesses. A task the dog enjoys, draws out his natural enthusiasm and will be easier to train and mold when combined with control.

As humans, we all have natural aptitude for certain activities. We all knew people in school who were very good at sports and others very good at Math. Rarely, did the Jock grow up to be a Nuclear Physicist. I think that's what she was talking about here and the innate enthusiasm for a given type of task.

When the trainer said that, it made me think of Jax and what Lizzy said about enjoying a task. Could Jax weave through a bunch of cones for Rally? Sure, Jax will do whatever I ask, but would he actually "enjoy" it? I don't think so.

Jax is like the Jock you saw in school. Jax excels at athletic things not mental. His back feet come off the ground 3 feet when he jumps for a Tennis ball at a full out run simply a-m-a-z-i-n-g, and yet is very very slow to train even the most basic of commands, like SIT.

Jax is not going for TDI. Why? He's not really interested in meeting new people. He likes them ok and tolerates people petting him, but he has rarely showed any "interest" in going up to a stranger. Yesterday was a typical example. Jax and I went at the pet store.. Jax was sitting and a lady came up to meet Jax. He sat there quietly as usual as the lady petted him. After a few minutes the lady said, “He sure is into Dadâ€. It was true, Jax was not interested in meeting the lady at all or her affection, Jax was holding his focus 100% on me. That’s Jax in a nutshell.

Peyton on the other hand wants to meet everyone and I mean everyone. If I wanted a TDI dog, Peyton should be the one I train, because she "enjoys" it and is enthusiastic about it, which brings us to control.

My #1 issue with Peyton is that she's too enthusiastic. Peyton can learn a command like ring the bell, the Look At That game in literally 2 minutes and own it. It would take me days to teach something like that to Jax if at all. Peyton loves to train and learn to do mental tasks; Jax on the other hand seems to labor through it at best. Can I motivate Jax to learn, well sure, he’s a GCG dog now. Did he enjoy learning it? I don’t think so…

I can walk Jax through a pack of strange dogs and he doesn't even react at all. I can't even let Peyton see another dog from 100's of feet away because she will over react. Peyton does not lack enthusiasm, Peyton lacks control. How you temper that enthusiasm while maintaining a high level of control is the real question, and from my experience it’s a lot easier said than done.

THe crazy enthusiams was Victor and teaching him to control it took about a year. It was no easy task. He went into a nursing homes knowing it is his "job" and is calm, he learned to position around bed and wheelchairs nicely. WE did it for 3 years. We joined Hospice and were sent to a woman that was obviously in the final stage of dying. I dont know why they sent us there at all. A dark cloud came over VIctor and it was there for hours. SInce then his zest for nursing home visits have been different. I have pulled him from the program for now. He is not enjoying it the way he use to and that has to be factor to consider too. Since you have working dogs I hope you find something that fits the bill for their personalities. I do believe a dog should enjoy what he is doing or not do it at all.

Good Morning smkie,

Jax is just not into other people or dogs for that matter. The only dog he plays with is Peyton and the only person he comes to with any enthusiasm is me. The only "thing" he gets excited about is a Tennis ball. Me AND a Tennis ball, and Jax REALLY wakes up.

As far as Peyton, the only thing I haven't tried is a barbed wire choking 220 volt e-collar. There are no quick fixes for Peyton in spite of her being a mental rocket scientist.

And you can use the "Me AND a Tennis ball" to build enthusiasm for a number of activities such as rally.

There rarely are quick fixes that actually work long term and that aren't abusive. The fixes that work take time.

Yes, I think Jax would walk on hot coals for a Tennis ball. If he had the choice of a raw piece of meat or the Tennis ball, I think he'd go for the Tennis ball.

I have never been able to figure out how to train with a toy, not food. I need to see that to get my head around it. Any videos out there? That could be my answer to Peyton as well.

Umm Its really simple. Sit, toss the ball. Here, throw the ball. Nice heel for a bit, throw the ball.

I use a ball a lot with Kaiden and Dekka with agility training. You get the behaviour you want, mark it and reward. Same as with food.

I would like to see that. There is a technique where you train focus while walking using a lure. I can't seem to get that timing down.

BTW, I tried using a Tennis ball to distract Peyton. Not much luck.