Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > Dogs - General Dog Chat


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 10-10-2013, 09:26 AM
Greenmagick's Avatar
Greenmagick Greenmagick is online now
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 2,987
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily View Post
Nope, there isn't. And that's not why I feed it, lol.

I'm personally willing to take the leap that in general, fresh, whole foods are going to be superior to processed dog pellets. I feel no need to eat premade, "perfectly" formulated foods myself to maintain health and don't see why it would any different for a dog, who like humans, are typically quite flexible in their dietary needs. I don't think that's a stretch at all but I guess after years of pouring kibble into a bowl some people might. Dogs have been eating kibble for a far, far shorter time than they have been eating various fresh foods in the grand scheme of things. And I figure I'm putting a lot more effort to my dog's diet than people 100 years ago who just tossed scraps into the bowl, and they're likely to be just fine.

That being said, I'm hardly anti-kibble and certainly not a part of the "death nuggets" camp. And I realize that most pet owners are going to feed kibble, and for good reason.
Pretty much this.

Humans are just now (as a whole, many have preached it the whole time) realizing (or rerealizing) that whole foods are far superior to processed foods. To me just because science has NOT studied it doesnt change my feelings about it. Science (especially studies) does not always show the whole picture. It can't show what we are not looking for, what we can not measure yet, or what we don't even know is there.

Its not always about how a dog or cat seems to look on a diet....many may look fine on a myriad of foods...but what is IN the food still counts.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-10-2013, 09:27 AM
Saeleofu Saeleofu is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,036
Default

Quote:
Then you've got the potential salmonella issue.
No more potential salmonella issues than if you eat meat yourself or give your dog any food at all (including kibble). I HATE that this is harped on as a reason to not feed raw - going so far as to exclude dogs from being therapy dogs if they ever eat raw or if any other pet in the house ever eats raw (Delta Society). Dog food and treats gets recalled for salmonella ALL. THE. TIME. If you eat meat, you have raw meat in your house anyway, and from what I've seen, most people DON'T handle it properly. Handle your dog's meat PROPERLY the same way you should handle your own meat, and the risk is minimal.

The "OH NOES SALMONELLA!" thing gets on my nerves with reptiles, too. No, I'm not going to give you salmonella because I have a lizard. I wash my hands. If you touch my lizard, you should watch your hands, too. At work we regularly test all our reptiles for salmonella and wipe them down with Nolvasan before letting people touch them, and people STILL freak out about salmonella. The vet I used to work for actually made us wear gloves every time a reptile came in. I'd rather touch a reptile than most of the gross outdoor dogs with nasty skin that came in.

tl:dr - WASH YOUR HANDS, PEOPLE.


ETA: And don't go calling me part of the "cult" for this post, because my dogs eat kibble with occasional RMBs or bits of whatever I'm cooking/eating. I'm just calling bullshit on the salmonella thing.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-10-2013, 09:50 AM
Laurelin's Avatar
Laurelin Laurelin is offline
I'm All Ears
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 29,059
Default

Here is my beef (haha pun)

I'm pretty certain dogs of the past weren't eating raw the way raw is being fed. No they weren't eating kibble but I doubt they were all getting 100% raw meat diets. Meat is expensive and has been a bit of a luxury for human consumption. The dogs were probably getting the crap that was leftover. And a lot of hat was probably non-meat.

So although I think fresh foods are probably better the idea that raw is what dogs have been eating just doesn't ring true.
__________________
Mia CGC
Summer TG2 TBAD
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-10-2013, 10:03 AM
~Jessie~'s Avatar
~Jessie~ ~Jessie~ is offline
Chihuahua Power!
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 19,584
Default

My dogs have been on raw for about 3 years now, I think. I don't care what anyone else feeds, but common sense and knowledge tells me that fresh raw foods are better for dogs. They have shorter intestines which means faster digestion and less chance for any bacteria to cause issues.

I would LOVE to see some studies, but I'll continue to feed raw because the results I've seen with my own dogs are all the proof I need.

I've never had any problems, and my dogs have never looked healthier.

My mom's toy poodle was plagued with continuous ear infections even on grain free kibble. She switched him to raw and he is a completely different dog with zero ear infections.

Here's my study. Haha. Zara and Emma are littermates. Emma has been on raw food since she was 5 months old. Zara was on a high quality grain inclusive kibble. Granted, Zara is recovering from a litter and has lost a good bit of coat. I can definitely feel a difference in the way my dogs feel to the touch, and with the tear stains. BTW, Emma hasn't had a bath since May, has no odor, and feels amazing to the touch.


_DSC7712.jpg by Chihuahuaesque, on Flickr


_DSC7627.jpg by Chihuahuaesque, on Flickr

I do want to say that I obviously have no issues with kibble. We use it for supplemental feeding if we forget to thaw them out their raw.

I do see a huge difference, however, in dogs fed low quality kibble and high quality kibble/raw. Greasy coats that leave a smelly film on your hands when you touch them, dandruff, etc, etc. I think we can all agree that corn and animal digest aren't natural foods for dogs.
__________________

L to R: Chloe, Rylie, Emma, Tucker, and Rory
My Blog- Chihuahuas are not Sheep

Last edited by ~Jessie~; 10-10-2013 at 10:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-10-2013, 10:42 AM
krissy krissy is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Central Ontario
Posts: 562
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeleofu View Post
No more potential salmonella issues than if you eat meat yourself or give your dog any food at all (including kibble). I HATE that this is harped on as a reason to not feed raw - going so far as to exclude dogs from being therapy dogs if they ever eat raw or if any other pet in the house ever eats raw (Delta Society). Dog food and treats gets recalled for salmonella ALL. THE. TIME. If you eat meat, you have raw meat in your house anyway, and from what I've seen, most people DON'T handle it properly. Handle your dog's meat PROPERLY the same way you should handle your own meat, and the risk is minimal.

The "OH NOES SALMONELLA!" thing gets on my nerves with reptiles, too. No, I'm not going to give you salmonella because I have a lizard. I wash my hands. If you touch my lizard, you should watch your hands, too. At work we regularly test all our reptiles for salmonella and wipe them down with Nolvasan before letting people touch them, and people STILL freak out about salmonella. The vet I used to work for actually made us wear gloves every time a reptile came in. I'd rather touch a reptile than most of the gross outdoor dogs with nasty skin that came in.

tl:dr - WASH YOUR HANDS, PEOPLE.


ETA: And don't go calling me part of the "cult" for this post, because my dogs eat kibble with occasional RMBs or bits of whatever I'm cooking/eating. I'm just calling bullshit on the salmonella thing.

To be fair, I did say that kibbles have been recalled in the past for salmonella and that I don't tell people not to feed it because of the potential for salmonella. I also said I feed my own dogs raw meats. But there is a POTENTIAL. A potential is just that. Potential. That means anywhere from "OH MY GOD IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN" to "there is the potential for complications, including death, during surgery" (and of course that risk ranges depending on the type of surgery, but let's just call it a routine dental prophy). As a vet I have to tell people any time there is a potential for anything. Do we lose dogs during a routine dental prophy? Almost never. Almost. Does that mean I don't tell the owner that there is a risk or that I tell the owner not to do the procedure? No, it just means I have to tell the owner there is a risk so that they know it exists so that they can make their own decision. There is a potential for salmonella contamination when feeding raw foods. That risk is probably almost non-existent if you handle the foods right. On the other hand, I've had friends who went to feed their dogs their raw food that had been sitting in the fridge for over a week. Oh, and let them eat it on their living room rug. I didn't yell "NOOOO! Don't feed that!" but that potential risk just went up a little bit. And it's probably still a small risk but it's more than what it was when the food came out of the freezer (and if they ate it outside or on a towel).

Then as far as it being the same risk to people eating meat. Yes and no. If you eat your meat raw then yes, same risk. If you cook your meat and use proper sanitation then I would say no, the risk is higher with raw. Again, as I've already said, probably not to the level of "AHHHH! DON'T FEED THAT!" but is there more live bacteria present than your properly cooked food? Yes. Does it matter? Maybe, and maybe not. Normal, healthy adults in the household? Probably doesn't matter one way or the other. Immune compromised, elderly, young? Honestly, the risk may still be small but I probably would choose not to feed my dogs any raw if someone in the house was undergoing chemotherapy. It's like... cleaning a litterbox when you're pregnant. How many women actually abort because of toxoplasmosis from cat feces? Probably not that many. Are you going to be advised to not clean the cat's litterbox? Absolutely. Should you abide by that recommendation? Absolutely. But if you choose not to that is your choice with full knowledge of the potential risks, and chances are things will probably be fine.

That is all I mean by "there is the potential for". It is a risk. It is probably small. But it exists and I think people should be making decisions knowing about even the minute possibilities. The one owner I don't mention this to will be the one with the dog who actually gets salmonella and then guess who gets **** for not warning them. I'll give you a hint... it's not the person they bought the raw food from.

And yes, they could have fed kibble and had contamination, but no one is testing their raw foods at home before giving it to their dog. At least when there's a recall we all know about it and some of that food never reaches the dog bowl. I think we all know there is a small potential for that to happen since we all know there have been recalls. Some people just don't realize that potential exists with raw too. And I don't like it when people yell at me at work. So I do everything possible to avoid being yelled at at work.

P.S. I used to kiss my turtles when I was a kid. I never got sick. Knowing what I know now would I kiss turtles if I had them? No... probably not... or I'd at least think twice about it first.

P.P.S. And no, you're not a cult person for having an opinion that is actually thought out. That's just a healthy discussion. Cult people are people who tell me raw food is better for my dog than kibble when raw food makes her sick. And that bloody, explosive diarrhea is normal when you first start to feed raw. And no matter what I try to say about how horribly sick my dog was... apparently there is no such thing as a dog who can't tolerate raw food.

ETA: And just to re-iterate, that I don't have a problem with people feeding raw and I feed some to my dogs. And if my dogs couldn't tolerate kibble and I fed raw I would be equally annoyed if someone preached at me about feeding kibble. But I'd still want to know the potential risks of both.
__________________

Kristie and the Apex Agility Greyhounds:
Summit (BBF Dropout) - Retired from racing, not life
Kili (Lakilanni Where Eagles Fly) - Walking dreamer
Future Puppy - Coming ~2016-2017

Last edited by krissy; 10-10-2013 at 10:48 AM. Reason: Adding comment
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-10-2013, 10:43 AM
JacksonsMom's Avatar
JacksonsMom JacksonsMom is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,841
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
Here is my beef (haha pun)

I'm pretty certain dogs of the past weren't eating raw the way raw is being fed. No they weren't eating kibble but I doubt they were all getting 100% raw meat diets. Meat is expensive and has been a bit of a luxury for human consumption. The dogs were probably getting the crap that was leftover. And a lot of hat was probably non-meat.

So although I think fresh foods are probably better the idea that raw is what dogs have been eating just doesn't ring true.
This. I always find it amusing when people claim they are feeding raw because of the dogs close relation to the wolf, however wolves in the wild are clearly not eating raw the way people are feeding their pet dogs raw. Also, many wild wolves in zoos, etc, are now fed kibble. Not all. But quite a few. The average lifespan of a wolf in the wild is between 6 and 8 years, many will die sooner (but some can reach 13). Wolves in captivity can live up to 17 years+. I'm not saying that's all due to food... obviously outdoor conditions and veterinary care can change this. But I don't know, for some reason, the whole wolf comparison (and I used to do it lol) kinda of annoys me now. We have pet dogs.

With that said, dogs are scavengers, and evolved alongside humans... eating whatever scraps they could find and corn mush and whatever they could catch themselves. Was it the healthiest? Probably not, but they survived, and some even thrived. Would I choose to feed a dog food knowing such stuff is in there? Nope, it wouldn't be my first choice.

I just think in general there are far too many contributing factors to judge either way. Seeing other dogs in a daycare situation, or boarding, or families pet dogs, is all anecdotal. I mean, my aunts pit bull is 13, overweight, has fatty bumps all over him, bad smell after you pet him, horrible breath/teeth, arthritic, etc, and has always been fed 'junky grocery store' kibble... is the food to blame? Or is the fact that he hardly gets any exercise, hardly sees the vet, has never had teeth cleaned or brushed, hardly gets a bath, to blame? I think had he been fed raw food all of his life but everything else was done the same, he'd probably be in the same condition, except maybe cleaner teeth.

Again with the teeth... I've had Jackson's teeth cleaned professionally 2x, I brush his teeth at least 3-4x per week, and use other things when necessary... he's fed a 'good food' (Acana, NOW, etc), but his teeth still get super gunky real quickly if I don't brush enough. Yet my dads JRT/Shihtzu mix is older than him (almost 7, I think) and never had teeth brushed or cleaned, doesn't chew bones, doesn't always get the best food, and her teeth are nearly perfect minus some build up on the canines. It's just one of those things... too many factors to really say for sure.

I won't fault those who feel raw is best, I think it's great. I think some advice that is spouted around on the internet is VERY scary though. That's my biggest fear is people that don't know what they're doing and messing their dog up unnecessarily.
__________________

Brit & Jackson


Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-10-2013, 10:52 AM
~Jessie~'s Avatar
~Jessie~ ~Jessie~ is offline
Chihuahua Power!
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 19,584
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by krissy View Post
I also said I feed my own dogs raw meats. But there is a POTENTIAL. A potential is just that. Potential. That means anywhere from "OH MY GOD IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN" to "there is the potential for complications, including death, during surgery" (and of course that risk ranges depending on the type of surgery, but let's just call it a routine dental prophy)..
There's a potential for something bad to happen with everything, though.

Dogs can choke on kibble. Mine are major gulpers. I've had to reach down Rylie's throat to retrieve a piece of kibble that was obstructing her breathing.

I just don't... understand the whole "well there's a potential for salmonella." I handle raw meat for myself all the time. I have to make sure it's cooked properly, wipe my counters, wash my hands, etc. It's technically more unsafe for me to be handling/eating meat that was once raw than it is for my dogs to eat it.

Look at all the nasty things dogs eat outside without issues. Poop (full of bacteria), dead bugs, lizards, etc... I think we worry too much about "bacteria" and dogs even though their bodies are designed to process raw foods quickly and efficiently.
__________________

L to R: Chloe, Rylie, Emma, Tucker, and Rory
My Blog- Chihuahuas are not Sheep
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-10-2013, 10:56 AM
JacksonsMom's Avatar
JacksonsMom JacksonsMom is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,841
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Jessie~ View Post
I think we can all agree that corn and animal digest aren't natural foods for dogs.
But... they kind of are. lol. Dogs were/are opportunistic carnivores... they'll eat meat if available of course, but they can scavenge for almost anything if they really have to. It's well known that dogs, back before kibble was even invented, were basically eating corn mush and table scraps. Families were often struggling to eat themselves, highly doubtful they were tossing their best meats over to the dogs. Also, so many are against byproducts in their dog foods but aren't by-products essentially what raw feeders often feed? livers, lungs, kidneys... bully sticks, chicken feet, etc?


Yes, science isn't everything, but I don't like the idea that "natural" is always better either.

And there has been a lot of things stated as fact on the internet through the years that is simply untrue, and it took a long time for me to believe it too. Where did we come up with the idea that corn is SOO bad for dogs? I think if we see more than 1 corn ingredient in a food (i.e. corn gluten meal, corn, etc) it's possible majority of the protein is coming from corn. But IMO, corn gluten meal is no worse than all the pea protein's, and pea concentrates we see in a bunch of the supposed high quality grain-free foods of today. I guess I just don't see who determined that potatoes, peas and lentils are any better than barely, wheat and corn?
__________________

Brit & Jackson


Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-10-2013, 10:57 AM
SpringerLover's Avatar
SpringerLover SpringerLover is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: B-ville
Posts: 3,113
Default

The biggest difference I've seen in my personal animals is digestibility and weight control.

My cat Rascal was never able to maintain a "lean" body condition. He was always fat no matter how little I fed him. He also routinely scaled cupboards and opened them to steal food if he was hungry. Eating raw he might plump up a smidge, but then I adjust his food and he's back to a good weight. He also NEVER tries to open cupboads and steal food anymore! He eats a mixture of ground and PMR. He does also occasionally get canned and/or kibble if I haven't thawed anything. I also don't have "stereotypical" cat poop smell coming from the litterboxes anymore, and living in a studio apartment... that's a HUGE deal!

I like feeding kibble to the dogs so I can use it as training treats, so even though my end goal is to feed Gabby raw, she'll likely always have a kibble component in the form of treats.

Currently my two cats eat about 90% raw and Buzz is eating about 50% raw. Gabby and Courage (the foster cat) get some raw daily. Bailey gets raw Primal in her Kongs whenever my mom remembers.
__________________
Megan and the Aroha English Springer Spaniels
To Infinity and Beyond! ARCH URO1 UCD Buzz NAC NCC S-NJC O-TN-N TG-N WV-N RL2 RLVX RN ThD CGC 5/4/1998-5/20/2014
The Hallway Monitor Bailey VCD1 RE NAC NCC TN-N CGC 14 years
Puzzle Piece Gabby RLV 8 years
ESRA foster Diego 12 years
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-10-2013, 10:58 AM
JacksonsMom's Avatar
JacksonsMom JacksonsMom is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,841
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Jessie~ View Post
There's a potential for something bad to happen with everything, though.

Dogs can choke on kibble. Mine are major gulpers. I've had to reach down Rylie's throat to retrieve a piece of kibble that was obstructing her breathing.

I just don't... understand the whole "well there's a potential for salmonella." I handle raw meat for myself all the time. I have to make sure it's cooked properly, wipe my counters, wash my hands, etc. It's technically more unsafe for me to be handling/eating meat that was once raw than it is for my dogs to eat it.

Look at all the nasty things dogs eat outside without issues. Poop (full of bacteria), dead bugs, lizards, etc... I think we worry too much about "bacteria" and dogs even though their bodies are designed to process raw foods quickly and efficiently.
I agree. My concern with raw has never been salmonella.

I feel like I should add too that even though I feed kibble, it's not that I even think that's the best choice. But it's just what works for us. Ideally, if I had the time and energy and extra money, I'd probably homecook.
__________________

Brit & Jackson


Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:20 PM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site