Is there any Scientific Data Supporting Raw Diets?

[sassafras]

Most people have terrible perceptions of what it means to be fine. I think most people EXPECT dogs to have smelly and greasy coats. Apparently you think dogs on crappy foods have nice shiny coats, but that has NOT been my experience. Again, this is why I said we need to agree to disagree on this because it looks like OUR perceptions of FINE are different.

No, they are not. I doubt very much that my perception of a nice shiny coat is different than your perception of a nice shiny coat. I think that you do not believe that I am seeing dogs who are actually fine, either because I'm too dumb to recognize a crappy coat or I'm lying or because you believe SO strongly that it can't be true that you just can't believe it. I do not "think" that dogs have nice shiny coats, I SEE and FEEL nice shiny coats.

Like I said, our Dalmatian Lilly looked fine. She lived to be 10 with no health issues except for renal failure at the very end. I LOVED her, but I HATED petting her because of the greasy film on her coat. I thought that was just how dogs WERE, because I had only known dogs fed crappy foods.

Again, a dog who has a greasy film on their coat is not fine. I would never in a million years describe a dog with a greasy film on their coat as having a "nice shiny coat," I would describe them as having a greasy coat.

Most people think their dogs are fine on crappy kibbles because dogs are supposed to smell and need to be bathed frequently. They're supposed to fart and have gross poops. They're supposed to shed constantly (obviously some dogs just DO shed a lot). They're supposed to have bad breath. They're dogs.

I don't know anyone who thinks this.

I think food is a big deal. If you don't think it's important, that is your prerogative.

When did I say I don't think diet is a big deal? Was it before or after I talked about how each of my dogs is on a diet that suits that individual best?

Their coats felt greasy, they smelled, they felt different than my dogs, they had disgusting frequent poops... and these are hundreds of dogs over the course of a few months.

Ok, my experience of thousands of dogs over a decade and a half is that most dogs eating "crappy" foods don't have greasy smelly coats or disgusting frequent poops. And if they do, I talk to the owners about it because their dogs are... wait for it... not "fine."

These dogs were considered fine by the vet too

I'm not sure what that has to do with me, but ok?

I'm happy you think that dogs on low quality kibble are just fine, but again, I am in total disagreement with that.

I don't think dogs with a capital D are either fine or not fine on kibble of any quality. I think that some dogs are fine and some dogs are not fine on a wide variety of diets, and instead of assuming that a dog isn't fine based on what it is fed, I actually look at the dog and decide whether it is fine by how it looks and acts. Crazy, I know!

 

[sassafras]

It seems it would vary widely since I think Hill's makes good food, but there are lots of people in the camp that grains and by-products are evil and will eat your dog from the inside... therefore Hill's = crappy food... therefore my dogs must have gross coats... which they do not... therefore Hill's = good food?

I know of a vet who shows, and one day while waiting to enter the ring he was complimented on how beautiful his dog's coat was and asked what he fed her. When he said Science Diet, the person looked horrified and said BUT THAT MAKES THEIR COAT LOOK TERRIBLE! Except that... you just said that her coat was beautiful?

That's a perfect example of what I mean by "the cult of raw." I don't care what anyone else feeds their dogs, I've fed a lot of different things over the years with various results. But when the belief of what you "know" a dog looks like on any particular food trumps what you are actually seeing and feeling right in front of you - your dog with a beautiful coat can't possibly have a beautiful coat because of the food you feed!! - then something is wrong somewhere.

 

[PlottMom]

I wish there was some research. All I know is Daisy's bloodwork came back perfect today, and she's been primarily raw fed since age 5 - she is now 13 and change... the holistic vet I work with is thrilled

 

[~Jessie~]

No, they are not. I doubt very much that my perception of a nice shiny coat is different than your perception of a nice shiny coat. I think that you do not believe that I am seeing dogs who are actually fine, either because I'm too dumb to recognize a crappy coat or I'm lying or because you believe SO strongly that it can't be true that you just can't believe it. I do not "think" that dogs have nice shiny coats, I SEE and FEEL nice shiny coats.



Again, a dog who has a greasy film on their coat is not fine. I would never in a million years describe a dog with a greasy film on their coat as having a "nice shiny coat," I would describe them as having a greasy coat.



I don't know anyone who thinks this.



When did I say I don't think diet is a big deal? Was it before or after I talked about how each of my dogs is on a diet that suits that individual best?




Ok, my experience of thousands of dogs over a decade and a half is that most dogs eating "crappy" foods don't have greasy smelly coats or disgusting frequent poops. And if they do, I talk to the owners about it because their dogs are... wait for it... not "fine."



I'm not sure what that has to do with me, but ok?



I don't think dogs with a capital D are either fine or not fine on kibble of any quality. I think that some dogs are fine and some dogs are not fine on a wide variety of diets, and instead of assuming that a dog isn't fine based on what it is fed, I actually look at the dog and decide whether it is fine by how it looks and acts. Crazy, I know!

It looks like you really should walk away from the computer and take a time out. I'm sorry this is getting you so flustered and worked up

 

[SpringerLover]

I know of a vet who shows, and one day while waiting to enter the ring he was complimented on how beautiful his dog's coat was and asked what he fed her. When he said Science Diet, the person looked horrified and said BUT THAT MAKES THEIR COAT LOOK TERRIBLE! Except that... you just said that her coat was beautiful?

We have quite a few dogs on J/D at work. I'm constantly amazed at how SOFT they ALL are. Except, I'm not, because I know how much oil is in that food! I prefer to get the EPA into my dogs a different way.

 

[sassafras]

It looks like you really should walk away from the computer and take a time out. I'm sorry this is getting you so flustered and worked up

I'm not sure why you think I'm flustered and worked up because I'm engaging in a debate? Nice deflection from my points, though.

 

[krissy]

We have quite a few dogs on J/D at work. I'm constantly amazed at how SOFT they ALL are. Except, I'm not, because I know how much oil is in that food! I prefer to get the EPA into my dogs a different way.

Love that food. Good for their joints, they seem to digest it exceedingly well, never had anyone turn their nose up at it, best poops I've managed to get out of greyhounds, beautiful coats. Though to be fair, I'm not sure the coat has everything to do with the food since I've never had a poor coat on either dog regardless of what they were eating... but they are at their best on J/D. Plus I personally LOVE opening a brand new bag of it. Smells great. Like fish oil without being fishy. Yum.

 

[~Jessie~]

I'm not sure why you think I'm flustered and worked up because I'm engaging in a debate? Nice deflection from my points, though.

I've given you my answers. I don't think dogs fed crappy foods are fine. You do. Great.

I think we're done here. We obviously have different definitions of a dog that is "fine." Since you won't accept that for my answer and are hell bent on getting something else from me, it looks like it's time for you to back away and take a break since it's obviously getting you worked up. No matter how hard you squeeze, you can't get blood from a turnip (or low quality kibble in this instance, since it's all fillers and no blood )

 

[~Jessie~]

I wish there was some research. All I know is Daisy's bloodwork came back perfect today, and she's been primarily raw fed since age 5 - she is now 13 and change... the holistic vet I work with is thrilled

That's awesome! I'm wondering how the long term effects of diet will be on my dogs.

 

[sassafras]

I've given you my answers. I don't think dogs fed crappy foods are fine. You do. Great.

I think we're done here. We obviously have different definitions of a dog that is "fine." Since you won't accept that for my answer and are hell bent on getting something else from me, it looks like it's time for you to back away and take a break since it's obviously getting you worked up. No matter how hard you squeeze, you can't get blood from a turnip (or low quality kibble in this instance, since it's all fillers and no blood )

LOL the reason I don't accept that as your answer is that you are completely misunderstanding and/or misrepresenting my position. Because if "sassafras thinks dogs fed crappy food are fine" is what you think I'm trying to say, then I don't think you've been reading any of my posts at all or your internal filter has reduced them to "crappy food" and "fine."

Feel free to take a break yourself if you feel done. Myself, I like a lively debate and I'm capable of doing it without getting worked up.

 

[*blackrose]

I wish there was some research. All I know is Daisy's bloodwork came back perfect today, and she's been primarily raw fed since age 5 - she is now 13 and change... the holistic vet I work with is thrilled

Meh, Blackie was fed a kibble based on corn and meat and bone meal more than half his life...he lived to be 14. Nary a grey hair on his head. He had a stroke and we euthanized. I've seen Labs look ancient at the age if 6. Rose was the same way and she lived to 13. We euthanized due to what we believe was heart failure. Fully believe genetics play a role with health and longevity, and it can't all be attributed to diet.

Not that diet doesn't play a part. It's kind if like the nature versus nurture argument in behavior. Both are important.

I've learned to not really care what people are feeding, unless there is an issue. I saw a gorgeous 9 year old Lab the other day. Perfect weight, great teeth, gorgeous haircoat, overall an awesome looking dog. The owner fed Pedigree. I was not expecting that. Lol Cynder was eating Pedigree when I started dating Mike and I switched her off as soon as I could because if her poor haircoat due to allergy issues.

I don't think raw, or homecooked, or fresh, whole foods are bad. Quite the contrary. I think if someone is willing to put the time and energy into that kind of diet, and it works for the dog, that is freaking great. But, I also don't think it is the end all. And I don't think a researched, trailed, processed food is causing our dogs to not live up to their potential.

 

[JacksonsMom]

It looks like you really should walk away from the computer and take a time out. I'm sorry this is getting you so flustered and worked up

I really don't think sass is getting worked up at all. Haven't seen that in any of the posts. She is simply trying to use her professional experience to shed light on things that, IMO, the internet folk tend to make a big deal out of.

 

[GoingNowhere]

:yikes: I come back to see if anyone knows of any studies expecting like 8 posts... and got 8 pages!!! :yikes:

Apparently the short answer to my question is "no."

I wish there were studies about raw vs kibble but like Sass said....who would believe them? It doesn't matter which way a study leaned, it probably wouldn't affect what people are doing.

Me! Me! Me! I would believe them! Science is my friend.

 

[k9krazee]

I feel no need to eat premade, "perfectly" formulated foods myself to maintain health and don't see why it would any different for a dog, who like humans, are typically quite flexible in their dietary needs.

I WISH I could have perfectly formulated pre-made food put in front of me twice a day!! Life would be soooooo much simpler!!!!!!!

On the topic of dog diets, I'm very much a "to each his own" camp-- I don't care what other people are feeding that I don't personally know-I did have to make sure my parents didn't switch back to Iams after I moved out and I fight with my Aunt about beneful constantly (her dog lived to be 14, but he was NASTY!)

I absolutely believe that not all kibbles are equal and not all dogs will thrive with raw. Do the best you can or know and that's all you can do.

 

[Paviche]

I agree that it should be judged on a case-by-case basis. I know that I personally saw how well Rowan did on raw, switching from a high-quality kibble - cleaner teeth, better breath, shedding less, tiny poops. On the other hand, after I tried to start Riff on raw, he had a partial mesenteric torsion that the vet attributes to the bones. Now, my vet is not really raw-friendly so I am not 100% sure that's what happened, but I do know that Riff has a sensitive stomach in general, and the only thing that was different before he had the torsion was his first 2 raw meals. I will never feed him raw again, because even if that wasn't the catalyst for his torsion, it still freaks me out and I could never risk it.

On the other hand I have fed Rowan raw since then and have no qualms about doing so again because I know it works for him.

When I was working at the daycare, it never surprised me to see that the dogs with crappy coats/teeth were on similarly crappy kibble. There were a few exceptions (a nice dog eating gross food, or a gross dog eating good food) but generally speaking there was a correlation. Of course that's anecdotal.

 

[Saeleofu]

Again, a dog who has a greasy film on their coat is not fine. I would never in a million years describe a dog with a greasy film on their coat as having a "nice shiny coat," I would describe them as having a greasy coat.

WAY off topic, but I think I need to come see you for an exam for Logan. I'm SO sick of vets telling me my dog is "fine" when he has dandruff and a gross coat and needs to be bathed every 1-2 weeks And when I say no, he's NOT fine, they say "Well, wait _____ and we'll take another look" (and charge another office fee) and invariably when I return, guess what, NOTHING has changed and my dog's still "fine." UGH.

 

[AmandaNola]

Nope.

Tbh, I don't think raw is all it's cracked up to be. I used to think it was "the best" even though I never fed it. But really, I've come to the conclusion that all dogs are going to be different and do better/worse on different things.

I've seen some very gorgeous athletic on Purina, RC, and Eukanuba. I've also seen some really crappy looking dogs on Orijen and EVO and vice versa. And I am sure and know that some dogs do amazing on raw. But I've browsed enough dog forums through the years and I have seen some very scary advice regarding raw. People who come on and complain of their dogs having loose bloody stool and told it's 'normal at first'. And basically just scary stuff in general.

And the whole 'wolf' argument. I'm not denying the similarities but really, dogs have been domesticated SO much throughout the years, who is to say their digestive systems hasn't changed either? Certain breeds are prone to or known for specific food sensitives, for example.

Raw (PMR or BARF) is just not something I'm comfortable with, and have no desire to feed, and I used to feed bad about it, once I joined internet forums -- it just seemed this was "THE BEST" and you were inferior if you did not feed raw. A lot of things are spoken repeatedly like a gospel and then people just start to believe it, including myself. It USED to be as simple to me as suggesting: "look for no by-products, first 3-4 ingredients being meat, no corn, wheat, or soy" without ever even paying attention to where the food was being manufactured, company history, quality control, testing involved, etc. At one point, I emailed a few of the 'better' 'high quality' 'holistic' type foods and was very dissatisfied with their answers and what kind of information they could/would provide.

So yeah, I'm kind of 'meh' about the whole thing. I don't care if people feed raw or don't, I think it will work well for some dogs and not others, just as certain kibbles work better for dogs than others. In the end, I think more important is genetics, lifestyle, exercise, physical condition, when or if you spay/neuter, and vaccinations (less of them).

Ditto that.

 

[CaliTerp07]

Lucy has never been sicker than when I tried feeding her raw. "STICK IT OUT!" people cried. Sorry--when my dog physically can't hold it in and her butt explodes trying to walk to the door, something is wrong. The raw cult guilted me into trying it for a week until my husband made me swear I would stop because our poor dog was so miserable and our carpets were filthy.

She does great on her kibble.

Feed what you want, unless there are major issues. This reminds me of the parents who campaign that anyone feeding their children anything except organic homegrown vegetables are shoving poison into their stomachs.

 

[This Spot Reserved]

I've never seen scientific research backing the theory.

 

[release the hounds]

Not that I really care what people feed their own dogs, but seriously, what does it say if an animal can't digest real food?