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  #11  
Old 04-09-2013, 12:21 PM
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Raegan Raegan is offline
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No links, but, the argument I have heard is non-traditional breeds would dilute the sport.

My Duck Toller wants to bark at rats, the tunnels for Earth Dog should be big enough to accommodate him.

My Toy Poodle wants to do hunt tests, you should use pigeons so he can pick them up.

There's a worry that the rules might be changed to accommodate off breeds. I do think there is some merit to this, it's beneficial to the governing bodies to have a reasonable qualifying rate so people want to keep entering. If you never make progress, there's not much incentive to keep trialing.

And there are examples of sports that are ostensibly open to any breed, but in reality are one entered by one.

Field trials allow any breed of retriever, but the vast majority of dogs are Labs (and specifically BLACK labs). Yellow labs are practically an off breed for field trials.

I'm sure there's some herding venue that's open to any dog that can do the work, but all the dogs entered are Border Collies. That working Border Collie registry has a process for non-BC's to enter the breeding pool, but it's impossible to actually pass.

And if these breed/type specific sports are breeding tests, it's not the same if dogs are trained to the task vs instinctive (however we can also have the argument that the "on breeds" are trained over their instincts).
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  #12  
Old 04-09-2013, 12:22 PM
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I am not really for or against, I'm open minded and all I ever hear is the we want to play too complaint, I am curious to hear the opposing and appreciate any input.

It interests me, a lot.
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  #13  
Old 04-09-2013, 12:29 PM
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For non sighthounds there is:
CA
CAA
CAX
CAX2
CAX3, etc.

From the list I attached. But it's just doing the same thing over and over again.
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  #14  
Old 04-09-2013, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackPuppy View Post
For non sighthounds there is:
CA
CAA
CAX
CAX2
CAX3, etc.

From the list I attached. But it's just doing the same thing over and over again.
And there is a whole world of titles available only to sight hounds.
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  #15  
Old 04-09-2013, 12:50 PM
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Well, I don't have any of the blogs, etc, that Adrianne was asking for, but since we're all discussing it, I'll wade in.

I do the CAT test with my non-coursing breed, and I'm okay with my dogs not being allowed to compete in the true coursing. It's a safety thing, and a fairness thing. The CAT test has less sharp angles, and the dogs run separately, both of which are hugely safer. (I talked to someone who knew of a Whippet that died during a coursing event when it was T-boned by another dog.) Also, in coursing competitively, the dogs are matched up by breed. Borzoi run against Borzoi, Basenjis run against Basenjis, etc. How would you do that fairly if you were allowing all breeds and mixes?

There is an all-breed coursing organization that has competitive coursing, but I'd be a little uncomfortable with it because of the safety angle. I know when I run Tess, she's going to be only interested in chasing the bag. What's my guarantee that the other dog out there is going to be the same?

I do kind of wish that there was a "higher" level of titling, in that the CAT test is pass/fail, which is great, but it would be nice if Tess' superlative performance could win her a little more than a dog that just barely scrapes by. However, that could be complex to set up, and might not meet a lot of support, so I'm okay with it how it is.

I wish that some of the other sports were open to dogs that can do the activity. A lot of non-herding breeds will herd, for instance, so I wish they could title in that if they can do the work. Most dogs won't fit down an earthdog tunnel, but if they will, and will do the work, why not let them? I was always sad that my Tully didn't get to play that game, which she would have loved. And I have a friend with a Miniature Bull Terrier who is bigger than Pirate, and does earthdog, so the "won't fit" argument doesn't hold. Some of the rules about which breeds can do a certain activity are sort of arbitrary.

Most likely, if herding, gundog events, etc, were open to all breeds, there wouldn't be many off-breeds participating anyway. But I still wish that those who wanted to, could. I will say though, that I don't find myself caring as much these days, with so many things available to all dogs.
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  #16  
Old 04-09-2013, 01:08 PM
Saeleofu Saeleofu is offline
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Quote:
The CAT test has less sharp angles
In theory. The course Rocket, Kaylee, Gwen, and Logan ran this past Saturday had some pretty sharp angles. It was the same course the sighthounds were running.
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  #17  
Old 04-09-2013, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeleofu View Post
In theory. The course Rocket, Kaylee, Gwen, and Logan ran this past Saturday had some pretty sharp angles. It was the same course the sighthounds were running.
Did they change it at all when the sight hounds ran upper level title runs?
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  #18  
Old 04-09-2013, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raegan View Post
I'm sure there's some herding venue that's open to any dog that can do the work, but all the dogs entered are Border Collies. That working Border Collie registry has a process for non-BC's to enter the breeding pool, but it's impossible to actually pass.
Okay, first off I've seen photos/heard of kelpies at USBCHA trials, which are predominantly border collies. I also know of someone who runs shelties. Second of all, it is not impossible to get a dog registered on merit, which is open to non-papered border collies (if the dog gets registered, it's not a non-BC). Dogs have passed it and gotten ROM. Is it hard? Yes. It could be considered too hard, but it is not impossible.
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  #19  
Old 04-09-2013, 01:32 PM
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The kelpies that run in usbcha all work like a border collie. It's not going to be a fair test for other styles of work like the dogs that tend clocks or even loose eyed dogs.
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  #20  
Old 04-09-2013, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
Did they change it at all when the sight hounds ran upper level title runs?
No, they don't. They set the course at the beginning of the day, and that's the course all sighthounds run (regardless of breed, size, or title progression) unless there is a problem with the field and the judge decides to change the course due to safety concerns.

Technically, CAT courses are supposed to be shorter and have less severe angles. But more often than not, when held in conjunction with lure coursing trials, CAT courses do tend to be the "regular" sighthound courses.

Here's a sighthound course... it was 900ish yards:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVXDvEnvFyM

Compared to a CAT course, which was 600ish yards:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg_hGQhrEgM

Kaylee was not as in shape for the 900yd course as she was for the 600yd course, but that was her first exposure to lure coursing.


Here's what I've heard from *some* sighthound folks as to why non-sighthounds shouldn't be allowed to run:
- CAT people aren't willing to help with the trial. (Ask us and we will!)
- CAT people ruin our equipment. (Um... what?)
- CAT people take time away from the sighthounds. (CATs I've seen have been very efficient... in Lincoln, we got through 20+ CATs in the time it took to run a single sighthound breed.)

On the other hand, here's what I've heard from other sighthound folks as to why non-sighthounds should be allowed to run:
- Get 'em hooked with the CAT, then sell them a sighthound. Help the sport grow.
- A lot of the CAT dogs run just as well as some of the "off" sighthound breeds. (A Doberman could "cut it" with Ridgebacks, etc.)
- A lot of the CAT dogs of a specific breed show more collective coursing aptitude than even some of the sighthound breeds. (Dobes as a whole are more keen to chase those bags than, say, Wolfhounds as a breed.)

I have met some wonderful people who have welcomed me into the sport. Most have been Ridgeback and Ibizan people. I have met some real turds who have tried to scare me away from the sport as well. But I figure as long as AKC offers CATs, and as long as my bitch keeps running "like a serious coursing dog" ... I'll keep doing it. (Though I do wish she had a tail sometimes... some sharp corners with a 2" tail have proven to be interesting!)
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