Totally Overstimulated Outside

Thank you all so so much for taking the time to read and watch the videos. I am really open to any ideas and suggestions this point and this thread has given me a lot to think about.


Yes, very much. Usually he does get calm with time in new environments and it has worked for me in the past to let him get his frantic energy out, but not he's just getting higher the longer I let him explore.

Haha, yes, very much so.

I've been re-reading Suzanne Clothier's and she says something very similar about expecting the dog to remain connected to her, and relentlessly reminding them and demanding connection (though she does not use corrections). Corrections or not, I think this is the path I haven't really tried yet, mostly for not knowing how to carry it out, but I think more structure will help him. At home he doesn't get away with this kind of behavior to get what he wants, and he's a great dog at home, so I need to figure out how to apply that outside.


Interesting to hear you say this. Premack has been recommended to me so many times, because he is a very environmentally focused dog, but it seems to amp him up even more. He will stop and sit, knowing that I will let him go sniff, but it doesn't make him calmer or more responsive long term. It just amps him up as he expects to be rewarded by more exploring. And obviously if my goal is for him to connect to me, using a reward that allows him so much freedom to self-reward away from me might not be helping long term.

I actually bought that book recently. I see a lot of similarities to the Relaxation Protocol, which I know Leslie McDevitt is a big fan of. I have done mat work with him, but I'll freely admit that I haven't followed through with it to the point of taking it on the road other than a few training classes. I see the value in using the mat as a portable crate, and having it as a tool, and I've restarted the program, though I still don't really understand how it will totally benefit some of these situations. Still, the benefits at a training class or a dog show would make mat work worth it if I can get him to that level.

I've considered meds, though I would prefer something short acting that I can give before a training session or trip to an exciting place, because he doesn't seem to have generalized issues (he's very calm at home, even in the new apartment).

And yeah, the life situation sucks and I'm sure it's making things worse even if it's not the primary cause.

I've thought about this a lot, and I don't think he's stressy. I've seen the exact same body posture and behavior at home, when he has flushed a rabbit and is frantically trying to figure out where it went, and when he is frustrated that the leash won't allow him to follow it. I don't deny that he looks a bit stressy, and that it could be somehow related to anxiety, but I don't think that stress is the primary issue here specifically. I do think his adrenaline is spiking, and a lot of the physiological symptoms are similar to anxiety, but I don't think he's fearful. If anything, it's the stress that he feels about having to be on the look out for wildlife all the time.

Funny enough, he is much much calmer in crowded places. Wide open spaces or woods are where he gets worked up.

The prong is a relatively new development, because even on a front clip harness he was pulling until my shoulder was sore. I haven't used it to actually correct him, just for some basic control. It's on the dead ring and also attached to his collar, with the intention of limiting the effectiveness. I'm still not sure how I feel about using corrections for this behavior, or if I am skilled enough to make that work. I have also considered that the prong amps him up, though I've gone back and forth between prong and harness in situations that make him crazy, and situations where he's fine, and I haven't seen a correlation to the equipment. It's certainly not solving the problem though.

I agree that I don't think it's caused by anxiety or fear, though I do see how it looks that way and I think the physical symptoms are very similar.

I know I'm approaching it from a herder mentality, but that second video shows a string of behaviours that I would find unacceptable. (I mean no offence to you -- I just couldn't keep my sanity with the constant frenetic searching of the environment.) I know he's a gun dog, so I am trying to keep the differences in mind. But basically, when a dog is on leash with me, it's because we are going somewhere on my terms -- I'm on a timeline and I require focus on me primarily. I don't allow marking -- I'll ask my dogs if they have to pee at selected areas, but that's it. Otherwise we're basically walking along in a straight line. When the leashes come off they're allowed more time to be a dog (though I still require them to recall, focus on me when asked, play with me over exploring their environment).

You said earlier:
I'm not sure the corrections you're applying are effective because he does not have a solid understanding of what's acceptable on walks. He now as a long history of reinforcement through exploring while on leash, so a couple nagging tugs probably isn't going to help much.

I'd go back to reteaching walks. Maybe via Ahisma's silky leash technique. Start from the ground up with more self control. Crate games, self-control exercises as mentioned above are a great idea. Have him drag a long line on a harness or something different than his normal collar when giving him more freedom, then switch back to a shorter leash on a collar when the walk/run is over and it's back to business at your side.

Just some thoughts. I'm running off to work now, but I'll check back in later.

I can't say i've paid much attention to Suzanne's stuff recently, but I do know in the past seeing a video of her scruffing her dogs and some other stuff that i would most certainly call a correction. It just didn't come from a leash and collar

But it's not something I'd go to first either and it doesn't really matter, there are a lot of ways to get where you'd like to go. They all take skill, and time and intention.

If you're not comfortable using that sort, then I wouldn't, but you do have to build that relationship with your dog that you can do something that let's them know you aren't happy and they have to know what it means.

When I use a leash correction, it is from ME. They know it. It's how I train it. They don't hit the end of the leash on their own.

I don't think the way you're using it is going to be helpful and as an example, when we do bitework, we do use a prong to create that irritation associate it with the bad helper. Some call it drive switching for dogs that have trouble associating prey work and what some call defense.. Basic exercise is 2 lines, one on a wide leather or harness and the other on a prong. When the helper is moving side to side, they're restrained with the harness or flat, when the helper turns to confront and threatens, the dog is restrained by the prong.

It works really well in helping dogs associate drive switching and is a great irritant. Helpful for that situation, but I don't think it's going to help yours in the way you're using it.

No offense taken, you are entirely right! I have avoided making walks a super structured time, because he doesn't have an outlet for running around off leash so I let walks be that time. His recall is awful right now (and you can see why, based on his behavior in the second video) and even in fenced areas he's doing the same behavior and isn't responsive anymore so I'm hesitant to give him that additional freedom to blow me off. He used to be much better. He can't drag a long line either - no matter how long it is, in a harness he will hit the end of it and pull like a sled dog if he's overstimulated like this. So I feel like I'm in a bind where I can't give him an outlet to be a dog and run around, and also keep walks super consistent and structured. Maybe the answer is to make everything super structured for a while, and allow him more freedom as he earns it. I've had a very hard time implementing this, becasue when he gets like this I can make him walk next to me, but only because he's on a prong and can't go anywhere. I still can't seem to get into his mind and actually connect with him. There is some skill I'm lacking there. Maybe I'm not taking things slow enough and being patient enough.


Yes, I feel like I am lacking some skill to deal with this, and nobody seems to be able to help me or show me in person. I have had trainers recommend corrections with him (leash pops), and tell me that I must let him know his behavior is unacceptable, but then I have handed them the leash and they haven't been able to change anything. They give him corrections, they try to outlast him, and he just fights back in his passive aggressive way to do what he wants to do. It usually ends with them saying, "Wow, he is tough" and then hand him back after not really accomplishing anything. I've owned and worked with dogs where I had no issue letting them know if I wasn't happy with their behavior, but I have a really hard time getting through to this dog. I can let him know if I'm happy with him, but he seems oblivious to my attempts to tell him when things are unacceptable.

what are they doing immediately after they give a leash correction?

Usually it's been related to conformation stuff, so they were either trying to hand stack him, or gait him. In each case they corrected, waited a beat for him to stop fighting back and take in the correction, then proceeded with doing what they were doing. In most cases, he fought back again within a minute, so they got a couple seconds of compliance and then gave him back to me to continue being an idiot. I understand the point of releasing after getting what you want, but I've never seen anyone able to get any lasting kind of good behavior out of him that way.

He has been extremely stubborn even from a very young age - the more you try to force him to do things your way, the more he digs in his heels. Maybe I'm just not stubborn enough. I don't know.

ETA: I will say that every single trainer, down to the super positive agility trainer, has resorted to correction with him. Every last one. Sometimes leash pops, once a spray bottle. But it has stuck with me that even trainers who claim to be very positive, and were nothing less than positive with every other dog in the class, recommended some sort of correction or used some sort of correction.

What does he do if you don't allow him any access to sniff around/do his own thing, but instead "force" him to keep his eye and attention on you by being random and silly with commands, interactive games, and the direction your walking?

Does he check back in if you start to jog/run, or is he still in "glazed over" mode?

I like the idea of giving him "freedom" with a long line and requiring structure when he's on his leash so he can differentiate the two.


This is just IMO, but if YOU aren't comfortable giving the corrections then don't do them. It will just muddy the waters and frustrate you and him both if you aren't confident in what you are doing.

Abrams may get a mild twitch with the leash while on his prong to get his attention back on me if I see the beginnings of him being overstimulated. (Or, oddly enough, I grab the tip of his tail, as when he walks the tail tip is right by my left hand. LOL) When I do it, he shoots me a glance and I can see him visibly relax. When he is already overstimulated, a mild correction (or touch from me) does absolutely nothing. A full body correction and a harsh verbal correction followed by redirection/calming exercises does.

I haven't had time to watch the videos but what jumped out at me in your initial few posts was the fact that your husband is "all about exercise and play". That's the majority of Watson's outlet right now, yes? He goes from all this well-laid out, structured training, to a whole slew of huge changes, plus it's all fun and games. Your husband's definition of well-behaved on a walk might be completely different from yours and Watson is responding to the confusion between the two of you as to what is expected of him.

I'm at work and not supposed to be on Chaz so I'll write more tonight, lol.

I dunno, I've watched them and Watson is pretty relaxed and well behaved on their walks - about the same as he is with me at home. I do let him do his own thing for most of the walk, on a long line and harness, as long as he can redirect to me when asked and he seems to be the same with my husband. But no, my husband isn't really a trainer, though he does try to follow the same things I do on walks (he is good at keeping Watson focused while walking past other dogs, for example, and doesn't let him lunge and bark). It's not like my walks have every been super structured because I want to give him some outlet to run around and be a dog, since off leash isn't an option. It could be that this is the foundation of my problem - still trying to figure that out.

My husband was only the primary walker for 2 months while I was staying in hotels for work. Since the second week of August he has been with me 2/3 of the time in my apartment. He is still ok at home, but worst when he's with me in a new environment. I'm sure some of that is related to being some place new, but he's been here for a while now and has barely improved most days. In the apt itself he's super relaxed and comfortable now, it's just his behavior outdoors.

He did lose the structure of group training classes, since I had to pull out of the classes we were in down there, and I haven't found anything up here that works with my work schedule. It could be that training classes were where we practiced impulse control and structure, and without that practice he is off the wall.

I probably wouldn't even be using a correction in that instance and it's not the same as what you're experiencing now. It should definitely be paired with interaction with you, preferably a recall or down with attention to you and then low level rewards and interaction. Nothing that amps him because that is going to work against you at this point. But, it doesn't sound like you want to go the correction route, so let's forget that road for a while. What I'd do, I probably couldn't put into words and have anyone understand anyway

I'd just start today, with taking the prong off, unless I was going to give a real correction with it, rather than have it be something that he pulls against because he will just get used to it and it will be nothing more than flat collar to him eventually.

I'd back up keeping zones and thresholds in mind and ask for absolute attention and obedience with everything we did. when we get out of the car, we don't take a step forward till he's at my side and looking at me (or however you want him to check in). and that's how our "walks" would proceed the entire way. I ask, you do, or we go backwards. He wouldn't eat, but from my hand and when I rewarded, he wouldn't get to maul my hand to get it, he'd have to sit calmly at my side and give me perfect attention even with it sitting 2 inches from his nose. Those would be my rules. If he can't give me attention to start our walk, it doesn't start, he goes back in the car and you walk away for a bit and come back and start again. He'll learn.

and then I'd want 2 steps of loose leash and recall to my side. we go nowhere till I get it and continue with all sorts of stuff like that. His life would be very limited and everything comes thru me. Nothing is high energy, you're not begging for anything, you're always calm.

I can empathize with you. Bailey is/was much the same. Such similar scenarios too. I can't honestly tell you what ended up working but I had to use a head collar to tone her down A LOT so I could get any kind of focus out of her. My whole goal was to make her sad and be more worried about what was on her face than what was going on around her. And we progressed from there. I would be more than happy to talk to you if you want.

When he's really gone, he's still glazed over. At the end of the second video you can see what he does if I stop and wait for a response from him - he's extremely frustrated and while he knows he needs to look at me and sit or something, he's really not happy about it. I can't really force him to pay attention or give me eye contact, but I can force him to walk next to me without sniffing and that seems to take him down a notch, though he still pulls and tries to get away and sniff. I'm basically physically forcing him to walk next to me.

On a normal walk, when he's sniffing around but still in control of his brain, he will refocus on me to do some brief heeling, or personal play, or whatever. I can work with that. In the first video you can see that he's will to focus on me and if I asked for more from him he would give it.

Spaniels. They're crazy, man. Haha

I was hoping the prong would have the same effect as what you're describing with the head collar. I think it does work that way in some situations, where he's only a little bit wild, but it's certainly not helping me here.

I'm open to any suggestions you have!

I've been reading along and was about to suggest a head collar too, depending on which one you use you could potentially turn his head away and force him to look at you. It would save your arm and remove the stimulation of the prong. I use a head halter and harness at the same time, either with two leashes or a double-ended leash so that pressure comes primarily from the harness.

Has Watson worn a head collar? I had to give Bailey very specific times she was allowed to be a dingbat and when I expected her to behave. She always had to focus and work to earn freedom. But in the beginning I was very realistic. Lauren was with us on a hike where she just lost it. And was so bad I just waist belted her to me with her harness and said screw it. I learned to carefully pick my battles.

All that to say that a head collar helped me make the biggest improvements. It gave me something I could work with. Corrections either shut her down completely or don't register when she's amped up.

No, I haven't tried a head collar for him. The risk of neck injury worries me because he can lunge at full speed, but I might be willing to try at some point.

Last night we started structured walking time at the college, and it went very well! After 15min we were walking 20ft circles in the parking lot near the car on a short loose leash with only a collar. No screaming, no pulling (except to occasionally stop and stare into the distance), and lots of focus. We started off a little rough, but he actually got the idea more quickly than I expected. His eyes even lit up once he realized we were working and he could earn treats.

I think one reason it went so well is that we started working on leash training with the penalty yards method a couple weeks ago. Once he realized that our work outside was the same thing we had worked on in and around the house, things went pretty quickly. There would have been a lot more frustration without that foundation.

I also used the car like a crate (since I can't fit a crate in the car) - we did the intro crate games stuff, like sitting when I went to open the door, waiting until released, and going back in for a reset when he started shrieking or lunging. It worked very well to not move away from the car until he was calm and focused. I've always made him wait to be released from the car, but I made the mistake of not also requiring calm - he would wait while vibrating to be released, which made him explode out of the car. Last night I also expected him to immediately focus on me after exiting the car, instead of lunging off in every direction.

I don't have any advice, just wishing you luck on this! Dogs all have their weird...stuff lol I think with the stress of the move combined with everything else, he will settle.

Have you looked into anxiety meds? I feel like I'm always suggesting them but a low dose may just give him a chance to relax enough to realize the great outdoors aren't going to murder him.

Thanks! I've considered some type of meds, but I don't think his issue here is related to anxiety at all. I think he's overstimulated by the environment and obsessed with hunting for critters, but I don't think he's fearful or anxious. I wouldn't be opposed to something short acting that could take the edge off though and help him think.

sounds like you're on the right track. I think things will get better quickly because you did give him that foundation previously. Be prepared for a regression just when you think it's finally fixed they love to do that to us, but stick to the rules you've laid down and it will pass too.

THe biggest issue going forward will be consistency because he's had "success" for being completely unfocused and a bit of a spaz on walks that the old adage of give an inch and he'll take a mile comes to mind, but I think walks will be something you both enjoy quite a bit again soon.

Keep at it!

Thanks! I know I struggle with consistency when I'm tired or in a bad mood, but he will absolutely take advantage of that to do what he wants to do. I'm so sick of the craziness on walks though, so I really want to stick with it.