Dogs that can never be off leash

I don't think that having titles on a dog means much to your ability to train other people to train their dogs, or train other dogs in general.

I would also be interested to know in what context this person said that. There are plenty of IPO people I know that will causally refer to blasting their dog... In good company. Because they quite literally are, with some hard dogs they need heavier stims. I'm just wondering how the advice was given due to that experience.

I mentioned in my other post that she recommended Lou Castle's ecollar training to me because I like +R and did not like the harsh corrections she was recommending (with the prong). But she thought the methods were a bit soft and she liked to use the collar to give a good hard correction. She thought a correction that made the dog yelp was the appropriate level. Her dogs are field bred Goldens with various degrees of hard and soft temperament (according to her). In general she wasn't a fan of ecollar training that uses the lowest setting where the dog can feel the stim. But then I saw how miserable my dog was after 15min of her style of training, so I wouldn't want her help with the ecollar anyway.

She owns her own training business and has been doing it for years, and came recommended, but I couldn't wait to get out of there. I used to think I had to find a trainer for ecollar training and they would walk me through it without fallout, but I don't believe that anymore. Now I'm just doing research myself and talking to people who have done it successfully in the most humane way possible.

This.

For me, positive training always comes first. That is the first road I try to take when trying to get to Rome. Then I have to evaluate on whether it is my fault the dog is not getting it, or is the dog ignoring me. Sometimes that is a fine line and I feel, most times, it is the handlers incorrect instruction and a willing, but confused dog that appears to be stubborn and itnoring, and the human cannot differentiate between the 2. An e-collar in those hands would be a disaster and will create more of a problem.

For me positive first. I am not really into clickers, most people get the timing off and spend more time trying to click and give cookies and fumble and it marks the wrong behavior by the time they are done with that.

Positive first, if the dog seems to ignore or confused, then I break it down further. From there you can tell if it is ignore, or not knowing with the dog. Then like with horse training, make the wrong thing hard and the right thing easy and rewarding. For me with puppies, when they come to you, always have a party. Even if you did not call them. I rarely do formal training sessions. We train all day every day. In the house, I call dogs and just give food rewards for coming then I go on about my business.

The problem is running away is a self rewarding behavior. Not much the human can do when the dog runs away and does not recall. It is easier to teach recall before the dog learns to run away. Untraining something that is a learned behavior is very difficult to do.

If one time the dog does not recall and you get your hands on it and you are mad and you negative reinforce the dog, it will be that much more difficult to catch it next time. Because it thinks, the next time I come you are going to (insert whatever angry impulse you have) me.

It is hard, I have been angry, and I really want to get onto that dog or have an e-collar and "let them have it". But I will not punish the dog. They have ignored me and went on about their business of being loose, and then I call again and they will stop. But I walk up, and I pat the dog because it stayed there, and I tell it good dog, and I put a lead on it and walk it back to the house. Then at the house, it gets a cookie.

Yes, I would like a good quality E-collar. But I will make sure that I am very comfortable with it. I have used them in the past and I am comfortable with it, but I do not want it to be my go too tool. It takes a potential life threatening bad habit for me to use that. Recall is one of the life threatening bad habit.

Abby and Zane, unless they see a deer or other animal, are 99% reliable.

Deputy is deep in dementia land, so it various by the day. Some days 99% others 50%. He will run off at the drop of a hat, stop and look around like WTF just happened?

Kieber is definitely not ready yet.

For me a couple weeks of using an ecollar is 100% worth it if it allows my dogs off leash privileges. At that point I can have them at a place that would take me months - or years with my abilities? - to train without one.

And they're both actually relatively sensitive dogs but don't come anywhere close to being brokenhearted about being corrected with the collar. They're more upset when I raise my voice.

We're all just more miserable when they don't get to be let off to run.

Not saying "ecollars for everyone!" I just... don't mind them used correctly in these situations.

Lots to think about!

Obviously it's an individual thing and only I can decide what might be right for my dog, and I'm still grappling with it while I keep Astro on leash for now. This is a dog that has been to many, many classes and has seen a number of trainers. I'm working with amazing trainers right now in fact. He had a lot of foundational work which, combined with his body language when he blows me off, makes me feel pretty confident still in saying that he's not confused, he's choosing to prioritize something else in that moment. Now that I've had time to breathe, I don't begrudge him that...he's an animal with his own mind and clearly every now and then the cheese/hot dogs/chicken must just not be worth it. (And honestly he's never been a remotely people-focused dog, even teaching him eye contact was like pulling teeth.) It's just problematic for our lifestyle.

I would sign up for Recallers before I would touch an e-collar, but it is in the back of my mind as a last resort because I feel at this point that the benefits of being off leash are huge, but I once again find myself living in a city and can't afford to let him book it away. Aside from Recallers, I'm not sure what other positive stuff to try. He gets reinforced so heavily for recalling every time (I never ask him to come if I don't have jackpot level treats, and I make sure to often release him so he doesn't associate it with going home), but these things are still happening once in a blue moon, and they are terrifying. I truly think the environment is just crazy motivating to him - a lot like Watson.

Another factor weighing on me is that I don't have a fenced yard, I live in a modest sized apartment, he's not a dog park candidate, and he's a young dog. If he doesn't go off leash on the trails then he has no way to do zoomies, no outlet like that. Zoomies with a long line is a disaster in the making I've found. I liked being able to let him have that outlet and he was obviously overall happier and more relaxed when he was able to start doing that. I do wish I could have worked him more off leash from the start, but that wasn't really an option when I was living in NYC.

I don't know if you mentioned this but is there a way you can set it up to reward him for recalling by letting him chase something like a squirrel or geese or something that you know won't keep going (Squirrels tend to go up trees, Geese go and either fly or go to water or something)? Work on some Premack with him so it's not just food he's getting jackpotted with?

I do completely agree that it's a bit nuts that anyone can get their hands on an e-collar, and potentially use it really badly.

But I'm glad that I did have it available as an option, because I truly think otherwise it would have meant Yarrow spending his life on leash. I worked and worked on his recall, but the fact of the matter is that his food drive is LOW to begin with, and often when we are out on a walk I can recall him and offer him a treat (like super high value) and he will either ignore it or take it and then spit it out. He is not biddable in the slightest, and absolutely just has his own agenda at all times. He likes to just wander around and sniff things and do his own thing. I won't go into it but I worked long and hard on his recall and truly felt that this was my option, or else no offleash privileges EVER (except maybe way at the top of the mountain on hikes).

Jasper and Onyx on the other hand, totally wouldn't need to go there. They have that innate biddability, much better drive(s), and all in all I can actually find ways to motivate them. Sure, we still have to work on their recall and chasing things is mighty fun, but with Yarrow it was just a whole different ball game I was also really careful with how I conditioned him to the collar and especially with the initial training.

I have a question, and totally not being snarky, I am just unfamiliar with e-collar training techniques. But those of you who use them, what makes you THAT much more confident that your dogs recall will improve so greatly and quickly with the aid of an e-collar vs other methods? Like, why are you so much more confident after e-collar training than you were before using it? By my logic, I would think that a dog getting shocked would make them NOT want to come back to you? But maybe I'm just confused and uninformed.

That's how I feel about it. My BCs will recall off assorted wildlife (running deer! whee!) but they're just in it for the chase. My pit bull and my feist? They're in it for the eating.

You need a dog that already has an idea of 'come'. You shock (or stim, but really its electricity and quite shock like) them for ignoring you. As soon as they stop or start coming towards you you stop pressing the button. The dog learns it can turn off the unpleasant sensation/pain by complying.

IME it isn't really faster to the end goal. It just lets people let their dogs off leash sooner in the training process.

I still wouldn't do it. Again I know too many people who train with ecollars and have seen too much fall out. I myself used one on Dekka to try to get her to stop chasing horses when they got turned out or were running around (aversion style usage of the collar). For a while she stopped but when the horses were running she got excited and jumped up and nipped/bit at people's legs instead. It did nothing to change her view of running horses. I had to zap her on the highest setting to get through to her when she was on hunting mode. Didn't make her shy or worried. Just make her learn to bite something else . However biting me was safer for her than biting a horse.

It lasted a few months and then she started chasing horses again. So its not a perma fix.

I pretty much used the vibrate setting only because it was adverse enough that Ryker didn't like it, but I felt better that I wasn't hurting him. There's a process that you need to train with a long line on e-collar recall. So coming = no more bad shock/vibrate. This didn't work for me 100% of the time when Ryker would catch onto a scent. Honestly I don't know how anyone can even be comfortable with 99% recall and let their dogs of leash.

Ryker is like Yarrow to a T in your description. Which one is Yarrow in your sig? Gypsy is SUPER food motivated. Like drooling when I say "food", but outside it doesn't matter. She will spit cheese out of her mouth to get to whatever she wants to sniff/find.

Someone in a thread said something like "Every time he is off leash and you call him and blows you off, it's a habit forming" and I think of that everytime I want to let him off lead

It's not that I totally am against e-collars, I just don't feel confident in MY abilities to use one, and can't find a trainer who I feel comfortable teaching me...plus Merlin is such a sweet kind of dopey boy I don't think he could handle it.

So we took it back 100 steps. Bought a long line, am now in puppy mode with always having a treat pouch and just...taking it from there. We ditched the word "come" because it's essentially ruined and are back at phase one with "POP"

He is MUCH happier off leash, but his happiness is not worth more to me than (at best) him chasing someone on a bike/another dog, and (at worst) him running off and getting hit by a car.

in the mean time I've gotten creative...put on the jogging shoes and just accepted that he's not the dog that I can let off leash to run without me so I better get running :rofl1: