Real Working Dogs

I TOTALLY agree with this. The whole "would I be happy if my dog was treated like their dog" thing I brought up was just one of several factors I would look at. I'm really happy with the way I treat Hugo, but I would never breed him. Temperament, health and demand all have to factors.

It hasn't been my experience that there's a sharp divide between show and pet breeders in terms of treatment of the dogs, at least in my breed. I had no trouble finding a breeder whose dogs are part of the family, and also health tested and shown.

I would bet that's because they're at a show, so they're working. I'm sure the vibe I give off when I've got Elsie Sonic (where she's jumping up onto the table and being a goof) is different than the vibe outside the obedience ring.

I think it's sometimes hard when you are at a show and the general public comes in with questions. This last weekend our show was at the fairgrounds while there was a rodeo AND a huge home and garden show going on in the other facilities. A lot of people were cutting through our barn and stopping to watch a bit. I do TRY to be friendly and I was more able to be since I just had Hank there to watch but a lot of times people are working and busy. I know once we had some people insist on petting Summer while at a NADAC trial and I had to shoo them away because I was trying to warm her up. Especially since she was older and really needed to actually break between runs.

Yeah I definitely don't disagree with this either. I don't think any joe schmo with a nice pet should be able to just breed... but I guess I see a lot of people call folks BYB'ers when I'm not really so sure how they're any worse than what these same ppl often call 'reputable' breeders.

But yeah I don't disagree with this thought process either and I guess it basically sums up my thoughts and feelings and what type of breeder I would be comfortable with as well.

Definitely an issue. Also, when you have people placing value on titles, adn not just ANY titles but SPECIFIC titles ("those are only LOW LEVEL titles" et cetera) there's an awful lot of pressure to perform at a specific (high) level, so at a show your attention is on... you know... your dog, and your dog's (and your own) performance.


FWIW yes, my dog IS an athlete. I take his training and conditioning very seriously as a result. Really no surprise that I might give off a different vibe than somebody who is "just" a pet owner. I'm sure my calendar filled with training runs that slowly build me up to a half-marathon distance also puts me in a different category than somebody who "just" enjoys putting on their shoes and going out for a casual run. There's a difference between a kid who just likes to go play basketball on his driveway and a kid on the high school team desperately trying to get a college scholarship... it doesn't make either person better or worse than the other, it's just a common sense difference when specific goals are involved...

you know what all this means? something I said in this or another thread, I have no idea, but most breeders are breeding substandard dogs. They are. It doesn't excuse the other, they're both the same.

I don't care much anymore, i'll find a breeder with dogs I want and get one. I don't care if they're "breeds" or "types". I know what I want and where to find it.

I don't know about a lot of other breeds, but I know in working/herding type dogs the differences are pretty vast between the types of dogs in the same breed. BYB'ers might hit gold on occassion, but I don't see them consistently producing anything that fits the "standard" in physical or mental traits. They might have a nice pet temperament, that's fine, but if you can't consistently breed a dog even remotely close to having the mental or physical aspects of the breed what do you think you're breeding? selling dogs off someone else's hardwork.

Most show and "working" breeders are the same. Half the "breeder" for working dogs know nothing. They have a few years in training a dog or two or they've bought one with a title from somewhere and now they're breeding "working" dogs. year after year they breed crap. I can think of a lot of people breeding dogs in my own state in my breed and there is maybe 1 I'd even remotely consider to go look at dogs. one, that's it. Lots of other people seem to like their dogs I guess, so my opinion doesn't really matter either.

one in particular I'd see mentioned all over on breed and training sites. I helped train the stud dog repeated over and over and over and that dog was a half tick away from running quite often. He was a nice pet, he was nothing that needed to be re-created that's for sure. People heaped praise on him and his breeder. Worked 2 of his progeny and they were duds, he at least had some drive with no nerves. people didn't care though. They liked the breeder and he had a title and that was good enough for them. it's not a unique story.

Show line? man, it's easily 20 to 1 breeders that are breeding nothing more than a perception for a market based on political choices and names. Nothing but a lot of lip service paid to the standard. But what do they care what I think of their dogs? They seem to like them but I know when I'm looking for a dog that can do what I want, i'm not wasting my time even looking in that direction. I don't feel like working that hard

Very true, good points, and I hope I didn't step on any toes or anything with what I said, I wasn't trying to imply one is better or worse than the other in any way. And I do totally understand the "dog world" is SUCH a different world than just your 'average pet owner'. I have a hard time putting it into words... I guess I'm kind of just rambling more than anything lol.

I think what I was kind of maybe trying to say... like, I see certain breeders/sports owners/etc that can rehome dogs like it's no big deal, or place their breeding dogs into new homes when they're retired, and treat their dog more like... an object that they love instead of a family member. I don't see any one on chaz like that (that I know of anyway) so I'm not implying any one here is like that nor is anything necessarily WRONG with that -- I understand sometimes things must be done, and it's just the way it works out sometimes, doesn't mean they're bad pet owners or bad people by any means. It's just a different world for ME as someone who just dabbles in stuff and doesn't really take it too seriously.

Devils advocate (and someone who has rehomed dogs) They still are family. Just as I expect not to live with my parents, my brother or my son for the rest of my life does not mean they aren't family.

I think its worse when people keep a dog who would be happier elsewhere. Quest is happier without Dekka but Dekka is a MUCH MUCH happier dog without Quest. So because I love a dog should I keep it no matter what? Or should I do what is best for everyone and find the dog a better fit where everyone will be happier. The people with Quest think the sun rises and sets with her. To be honest they love her more than I would have. I liked her a lot but she wasn't 'my everything dog' like she is with them.

Oh yeah, I definitely see your point, and appreciate the analogy, it does make sense. And it's very obvious that what you did was in Quest's, as well as Dekka's best interest.... I totally GET it, that's the thing, I'm not against rehoming and don't judge... if I added a dog and Jackson was totally miserable and it was just wasn't working, I would likely rehome as well. I'm just basically saying the breeding/show/sport world is somewhat foreign to me, and I am even slightly involved in it myself, so I can see how it may be intimidating for an average dog owner picking out a dog so I see a place for the "higher quality BYBs" (such a thing?? LOL) in a weird way.

Yeah when I'm at a competition Feist is an athlete and I'm doing my best to keep her relaxed and in the right zone. Which means warming her up, doing our turn at disc, cooling her down, and popping her back in her crate in the car. Doesn't mean she isn't my smooshy love, it means she's more comfortable in her crate away from the sidelines and can actually rest between rounds. It can be weird when you're on the outside looking in.

Gusto is totally the "I take him out of the crate with A Plan and my apologies I will not deviate" type. I don't think many people would look at us and think "she is cold with her dog", since 90% or more of The Plan is constant interaction and reinforcement and movement. But we don't sit and cuddle (Gusto would be appalled), we don't socialize or hang out. He's not a dog who can turn on and off easily, so he's either working or chilling in his crate.

Meg's the total opposite, and her prep beyond the physical warm-up is "snuggling and telling her she is the best thing alive. And then eating Nutter Butters." She likes to draw strangers into the action by giving them baleful eyes, and is very content to lay on the ground getting love from spectators.

I get what you mean, I think. While I agree that I'm not against rehoming in a lot of situations, I do know several competitors who seem to constantly be flipping through young dogs and then rehoming them to try again. I view that with less kindness than those who rehome because there is a serious issue in the household. Dogs aren't like phones; upgrading every two years doesn't make you cool in my book.

That makes sense. And yeah I don't mean I expect to see everyone like cuddling and coddling their dogs like little babies or anything either lol. Jackson would hate that too. but like you say, I guess when you do have a dog working or in competitions, that's kind of necessary. Maybe if I had multiple dogs or was more seriously involved I would understand better. I just know I often feel somewhat... out of place at sporting events (whether it be barn hunt, dock dogs, agility) and I can't really explain it. I mean, I'm a dog person, Jackson is a really good dog and thoroughly enjoys the training and I do enjoy our time together doing activities. It certainly adds a unique bond to pet ownership that a lot of people don't get to experience.

I guess I can just remember a few people at our more serious agility classes (not the just-for-fun type) that would have like 2 or 3 dogs and be taking 3 separate classes in a row (which is fine) but it was the way they went about it so... business-like. Like it was almost... a chore? for them and it seemed like they were solely there to just become perfect and win or something, vs. enjoying the quality time they could be spending with the member of their family. I guess you could compare it to the parents who don't mind a little competition with their children and enjoy seeing them win, and train, and practice but at the end of the day, their child is their child and not just a sports competitor, whereas some parents that is their MAIN concern and "You have to do this to get into college... and you HAVE to be this way..."

Again, for the most part, most of the people were cool, but there was just a select few that rubbed me the wrong way. Like it's still just a game people.

Yes that's sort of what I was getting at.... like a revolving door of dogs for the purpose of sports just makes me question the overall motive of a person. But I mean even my stepdad's involvement in race horses sometimes rubs me the wrong way and I get that's a completely different world than dogs, but I hate going to visit his horses he owns at the barn and getting somewhat attached and then all the sudden he's just like "oh that one got claimed" and then I never see it again. I'm just not the kind of person that can... let go that easily and be so nonchalant about it. Lol. But that's just what that world IS so I do get it and the horses aren't his pets, even though they are all very well taken care of, so that's the most important.