Zip Tie

Discussion in 'Dog Pictures and Pet Photos' started by SaraB, Jan 4, 2013.

  1. Lyzelle

    Lyzelle New Member

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    This. You need to set yourselves apart from the BYBers and the Designer Mutts.

    One major difference here is that the C/Koolie is an actual breed. Another is that you are both educated and have goals in mind. You want to keep tabs on your dogs, and that is important too. But there needs to be a readily available education source for anyone who wonders about C/Koolies. A database. A learning center...all of it. Contacting you is good, but many people won't go even that far for quick information. They want to read a few web pages and be done.

    Or else you might go bottom up to Designer Mutt breeders, which is the worst way to go and the best way to leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth....speaking from the consumer perspective, of course.
     
  2. Linds

    Linds Twin 2

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    Ok, I wanted to elaborate since I think I rushed some of my answers since I was getting ready for work.

    I've been much conflicted about the working/herding aspect with breeding plans. I very much would love to stay true to the breed roots of a working farm dog. But, I also don't live on a farm currently nor do I really see herding trials as proving working ability but rather sport work. In addition to that I'm not that incredibly interested in truly trialling in herding. I fully plan to get them both exposed to stock, have someone help me work them or work them themselves enough times to get a good idea of their ability, type of working, clear headedness etc. Because I do feel it's the core of the breed but at the same time, like I said, I don't live on a ranch with my dogs working everyday and to me that's about the only way to truly say I'm breeding for working dogs, I'm not that interested in stock dog trials and I don't live close enough currently to any place that I could train at at a consistent basis.

    I would though like to very much try to place some dogs on co-owns/breeding contracts with people that intend to work them on stock on a regular basis. How feasible this will end up being, well time will tell, but I would very much like to do that.

    As for not titling extensively I'm not sure what you mean? Currently my main interest is Disc but like I said I plan on working/learning/training in agility and rally too. If it works out some other few titles and things would be nice such as doing some dock diving. But, I would very much rather train fully and compete to high levels in one or two sports rather than jump around and dabble but never "master" any, if that makes sense?

    Like Sara said, we are very often in contact with people considering importing at a later date, making plans and feeling things out. Also, because of my heavier online presence I've had breeders come to me when they have people talking about importing to the states and often send the people to talk to me. It's helped make quite a few connections and while nothing is set in stone there are more people/dogs in the works other than Sara and I.

    And I understand the idea of starting a club but as it stands right now I'm hesitant to do it. So far with the infighting going on everyone's solution is to create a new club. I would rather get a foot in the door, learn more and flesh out more before trying to make another club.

    Ok, everything else I just again say ditto to what Sara said!
     
  3. Dakotah

    Dakotah Kotah BEAR

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    I am loving all of the info in this thread. I have been reading this thread since it started. Everytime I think of a question to ask, I read the next post or 2 and find the question was asked and answered :) I love Linds and Sara's coolies. Zip is so handsome <3 Keep up the good job ladies, y'all have some mighty big goals and I, and surely everyone here, wants y'all to succeed.
     
  4. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

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    I love the Koolies but I have one question. How can they be a breed without a standard? To me, for a breed to be a breed, there has to be a written standard detailing the basic conformation,temperament and characteristics. Even the more rare breeds have written standards in my experience.
     
  5. Linds

    Linds Twin 2

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    Koolies just don't. They have an overall working/temperament standard but nothing written. They are a varied breed, their looks can go from short furred, merle, prick eared 25lb dog to a long haired, drop eared, solid colored 50lb dog. They are bred for different types of work, different conditions, different stock etc. so having a set standard was never wanted since it's limiting and not necessary when they are defined by their work.

    Also, I want everyone to keep in mind Sara and I are still learning, still new in the breed and don't consider ourselves experts in the least. It's an on going process, figuring things out still, learning more and evolving along with our plans
     
  6. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

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    So there is a standard, just not written...that makes a difference to me. Very interesting. Do you have any pics of longhaired Koolies? I'd love to see one.
     
  7. Brattina88

    Brattina88 Active Member

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    I was reading/learning/enjoying this thread and then that made my heart stop :D lol :eek:
     
  8. Lizmo

    Lizmo Water Junkie

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    To me, from what I have read/learned, the Koolie 'standard' is alot like the 'standard' of a working-bred Border Collie. I don't ever remember reading/hearing about a 'standard' when I was researching the working side of the border collie breed. They can be many different things: short, tall, long, floppy ears, prick ears, smooth coat, rough coat, black, white, merle, blue, etc.

    I always thought of the 'standard' as having a healthy dog that is mighty fine at working stock. Maybe that's wrong?


    Linds, Sara, thanks for being open to all the questions! I do hope you guys will pursue the working side of the breed further than instinct tests, though. Those really don't tell much. Basically, oh, yes, a light bulb does come on when around stock. But it won't tell you if the dog is natural on one flank versus the other, do they do long outruns naturally, do they struggle with tight spaces, are they a pro with lambing, is lying down an issue, how do they react to different types of pressure, are they better with 5 sheep or 150 sheep, how to they handle correction, etc.

    I am curious, and I do apologies if this has already been addressed, are you guys going for making this breed into one that is focused more on the sport side or a 50/50 split of sport and working mix?
     
  9. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    I completely agree, it would be wonderful to go further than instinct tested and that is why I will keep Zinga in lessons and encourage my husband to pursue that with Zip. I absolutely need to learn more about herding in general, as well as herding trials.

    Once again, I don't think we are "making" this breed into anything. This breed is already well established in Australia. I appreciate my sport dogs, so automatically that is what my dogs are going to be stronger in. I'm perfectly ok being a "sporter" koolie breeder as long as those koolies retain herding instinct.
     
  10. Lizmo

    Lizmo Water Junkie

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    Making probably was not the best choice of words. I guess a better choice would be focus, possibly. I was just curious what your main focus (even goal?) would be, or would you try for a mix between excelling in sport and working ability. Thanks! And an immense amount of luck to you guys. I'm super excited for you!
     
  11. Psyfalcon

    Psyfalcon Fishies!

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    You know...

    If we were talking about Border Collies with a show title, there would be a couple pages of grumbling over how BCs shouldn't be judged in a ring, and then we'd be on to looking forward to baby puppies. (The parents have titles after all!)

    Now we have a couple of people who plan to title their dogs in multiple sports, and there are still posts about that?
     
  12. ~Tucker&Me~

    ~Tucker&Me~ and Spy.

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    Have you guys talked much about exactly what the agreement will entail? I am curious because I know Linds is very vocal (in a good way) about keeping Traveler intact for health reasons, not simply for breeding. I also keep my male intact (with absolutely no intentions to breed) because I feel that it is unnecessary (at least at this point - he is 6 years old) and that I am capable of responsibly keeping him contained.

    Linds also mentioned that she liked the fact that the original breeder sold him to her without a complicated contract, and that once the money was sent he was her dog to decide how to best care for. Like Linds' breeder, mine did not require that I neuter Spy, just that I not breed him without consulting her and getting her approval.

    I am a bit surprised that you guys are planning to do a neuter agreement. Would you mind expanding on your reasons for doing so and, if you know at this point, what the contract would roughly entail? I am curious as to why you have decided to go this route after it seemed that Linds was really an advocate for having the choice to leave a dog as nature intended if an owner felt that they were capable of the responsibility that comes with it.
     
  13. ~Tucker&Me~

    ~Tucker&Me~ and Spy.

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    I don't think anyone is attacking. Most people on the forum know quite a bit about BCs, but coolies are still very 'new' to the scene. I think people are just curious and want to know what direction Linds and Sara plan to take the dogs they are importing. As far as I can tell, they don't mind the questions and their honesty and openness is helping people get a better feel for what to expect down the road.

    Honestly, if people decide to breed dogs I think they should be open to scrutiny. Keeps things honest :)
     
  14. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    Clubs help contracts. For eg, Fred was sold progeny not eligible for registration. Ie if I breed him the pups won't be papered. It's not exactly solid, but it is something.

    I can't lie, I see a lot of holes here. I think you'd definitely benefit from a mentor or shadowing another breed club.
     
  15. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    Just a quick note before we head off to trial this morning. We have not discussed the contract, and am still not entirely sure it will be a neuter contract or a non breeding one. I do believe that there needs to be some piece of paper signed by both parties to limit the breeding of pet quality dogs.

    Of course there are holes! This is all brand new for Linds and I, breeding is at the minimum 2 years away. I have several breeders that have already been so patient with my questions, they will be consulted before anything is decided. I have also been very involved in the local great dane breed club for several years, served on the board for one of those years.
     
  16. Linds

    Linds Twin 2

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    :rofl1: I am very vocal about it! It's one of the thing when Sara and I talked I think I said I just can't bring myself to be ok with, an alter agreement.

    Here's what I posted earlier in the thread

    But yes, still a ton of things to figure out. Contracts give me hives, it's going to be interesting seeing where we go with that and I imagine Sara is going to want to beat me over the head a few times!
     
  17. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    Wow what a thread! Zip Tie is cute and looks like a real puppy now :)

    As someone involved in breeding a herding breed who doesn't do herding, I wanted to touch on that. Back when I first decided to breed dogs, when I was a teenager and long before any breedings ever took place I thought for sure I would breed dogs that could do it all. My breeding dogs would do herding, schutzhund, high level agility, high level obedience and be pretty enough to finish CHs easily. It was obviously that GSDs didn't fit that mold when I tried to become involved with showing them but Belgians seemed like they could. And now years later, I still feel that they certainly could.

    However, the truth of the matter is that I do not have unlimited time nor do I have unlimited funds in which to pursue all of these many venues. I tried to do everything with Jagger, including SchH and while it showed me what an awesome, versatile dog he truly is...it made it hard to focus on any one thing for titling purposes. It became obvious that while he loved SchH and I enjoyed it, I would have to give up all of the other stuff I loved and was already involved in to pursue even getting a SchH1. Things like SchH and real, higher level herding tend to easily become all consuming. Unless you're lucky enough to live close to an outstanding club or instructor, it usually involves a good bit of travel time and lessons can be pretty expensive.

    With herding, if you have a really strong dog and a dog that isn't a BC, it is not always easy to find instructors that are the right fit for your breed/dog. And it can be extremely hard to get past the "herding as a test of obedience" with a strong dog when you don't have access to sheep on a very, very regular basis (like more than weekly). This is because the dog tends to get so excited by the sheep every lesson, it takes awhile for them to settle enough to work them and even then it's as I said, more a test of keeping control than real life herding. Dogs who live on farms don't react the same way because they see livestock from the time they are puppies. It is much, much easier for dogs with daily exposure to stock to progress and show their real talent.

    Some breeds, it is nearly impossible to recreate their traditional herding setting in the US. While herding seems like one set behavior pattern, different breeds have different styles. The terrain, type of stock, number of stock and overall situation the dogs were developed in can make for herding breeds to have drastically different styles and behavior towards stock. PyrSheps lived with a shepherd and his flock and they spent most of their lives together in that setting. The dogs knew their sheep so well that they could pick them out of a huge group on community grazing land when it was time to go. And the sheep knew the dogs so well, the dogs had to have what many would consider an "aggressive" herding style when it came down to the sheep needing to be moved. The dogs had to be able to work sheep high in the mountains, where footing was bad and the sheep couldn't always all stay close together. How could one really truly test that for that here in the US? GSDs were bred to work thousands of sheep in open grazing areas, keeping the sheep within a natural boundary. There are I think two places in the US that offer the true GSD style herding. Many GSDs who are good for that type of herding are just too powerful for the small pen with a few sheep work most commonly done in the US. Not to mention, gripping is essential to GSD's herding style and frowned on by many livestock owners ;) And Koolies...it would seem near impossible to test their skills at managing hundreds of sheep, working large numbers of sheep in tight quarters, backing and what not in the US unless you found a working ranch that would allow you to come for lessons. And even that wouldn't guarantee you that your dogs could wok in the conditions they would in Australia.

    It's a nice idea to say "well if you're going to breed herding dogs, they need to herd". But...it's not always that easy. People involved in dogs tend to already have strong interests in different venues prior to deciding to breed. Most don't want to give up those interests totally and through themselves into something new. A lot of people live in the suburbs and can't have a working farm to prove their dogs on. And even at that, it tends to be a "take what you can get" and the type of herding may be nothing like what the breed was created to do. And...there really is more is more a need for sport dogs in the US than working farm dogs. I think it would be pretty difficult to get real working homes (ie with farmers/ranchers) in the US interested in buying a breed they've never heard of, never seen work and have no experience training. Most people who need dogs for work already have breeds or mixes they use and are happy with. And the truth is, fewer people are using dogs to move stock to begin with. Even working BC people worry about the diminishing need for real herding dogs. It seems most of the Koolies being brought here are being brought here because people like the breed and not as real working farm dogs but I could be wrong.
     
  18. Linds

    Linds Twin 2

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    Very nice post, that's pretty much exactly what I was trying to get across earlier but said better.

    Also, I just want everyone to remember this wasn't a "Here are our fully formed, completely ready plans to start breeding tomorrow". This was us just trying to be forthcoming and transparent about what our thought process has been, things that are in the works and ideas/dreams/desires we have. Because of that you do get to see the many holes, uncertainties, and naiveté that is there. Nothing is set in stone, nothing is completely fleshed out, we've got years of planning, research, people to talk to and things to figure out ahead of us.
     
  19. stardogs

    stardogs Behavior Nerd

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    I can't imagine how daunting it is to be navigating the rare breed breeding waters! There seem to be so many more considerations when the breed has such a small pool to draw from in country and breeding a breed more common is complicated enough. I'm looking forward to following along as you guys continue to work out the details for sure. :)
     
  20. Beanie

    Beanie Clicker Cult Coordinator

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    The NOISE.


    Yeah, the idea of multiple baby Paytons makes my heart stop too, but probably for a different reason...



    On the subject of herding - IMHO, in the US at least, herding has become a "sport" (ie. herding trials) for a great many people and an actual means to a livelihood for very few. It is incredibly important to me to find a sheltie breeder with a dog who can move sheep, but the number of breeders who own their own sheep to test this is very slim and seems to be getting smaller all the time. I do think it's incredibly important to find a test outlet of some kind even if it's "just" a herding trial (I'm not saying instinct test, I'm talking further along) but we've talked quite a bit about the changing faces of breeds in modern times - for example, testing the gameness of dogs who were bred to fight - and I have no fancy that herding dogs are somehow exempt from that.
    Would I prefer a breeder who has a farm and works the dogs on the sheep every day? Absolutely.
    Would I turn up my nose at a breeder who lives in the middle of the city but has multiple dogs (of her own and dogs owned by other people) with herding titles and agility titles? Nope.

    I would pass up a breeder who didn't have any dogs in her lines at ALL doing at least herding trials - there is a breeder who is technically on my short list because although she doesn't do herding herself (she does agility, flyball, and confo), several of her puppies go on to do so. Since the ability to trial sheep is there in her dogs, she is on my list. I would prefer the breeder to be proving the ability herself rather than having the puppy buyer proving it but, as Aleron said, I can understand from the perspective of how much time and money she is already putting into her dogs... it's not like she's sitting on her duff doing nothing but churning out dogs and the puppy buyers are the ones doing all the legwork to title pups.

    Cliffs Notes, of course it would be ideal if Linds and Sara were working the dogs on a flippin' ranch, but in the world we live in now, I feel like there are other solutions out there as well.
     

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