Zip Tie

Discussion in 'Dog Pictures and Pet Photos' started by SaraB, Jan 4, 2013.

  1. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    What it means to me (though this may be wrong but it is a question I have) is if the breed has been developed as a working ranch dog pretty much solely, how are you going to make sure to keep the breed what it is once you start breeding for something different (sports)? I am not one to think sports breeding is bad for the record.

    And I do appreciate the openness of both of you.
     
  2. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Yup, same thing I asked before... is there going to be a governing body (KC) established with a standard and code of ethics to adhere to prior to breeding?
     
  3. Lyzelle

    Lyzelle New Member

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    This is what I took it as, as well. How do you plan to keep the temperament and structure of this herding/ranching breed when most homes you would cater to in the USA are not herding/ranching homes. Or, are you hoping that C/Koolies are very versatile dogs that are perfectly capable of doing a variety of sports without much change in structure/temperament. Or if something does have to be changed, what your goals are in your breeding program. That sorta thing, I suppose.

    And if there will be any Breed Club, or is there one in the US already? Would you seek out AKC recognition or no?

    Definitely appreciate your openness and honesty in everything! I love learning about this breed.
     
  4. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    It really is fun seeing this from the ground up. I'm curious as well if AKC/UKC recognition is an eventual goal for ease of trialing intact and record keeping.
     
  5. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Have you thought about or found a mentor over here that maybe ranches with a breed that works in a similar fashion? (I'm not even really sure if there is one)
     
  6. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    You have to hope other people will follow your lead or this will fizzle out quite quickly. And as others have already asked, who decides on what standard you achieve? Ranching ability is different to sporting? Etc etc. Which I guess is why breed clubs and standards come in.

    Why do you want to breed? Who for? Where do you see it going?

    I like koolies. My oh wanted one till I told them there are none in the UK (based on trav pics!), but having seen new breeds go tits up in the UK I know how hard this is to be fair. It's a lifetimes work, a few breedings by 3 health tested dogs is a drop in the ocean. There needs to be almost a business plan in place!!

    Are there other people on board?
     
  7. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    I keep poking in here to check out the questions between runs. Awesome questions, I am so excited to answer them! One more run....
     
  8. SpringerLover

    SpringerLover Active Member

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    That is how I meant it. I don't have an issue with breeding for sports either, per say... and I also don't have an issue with breeding for pets. I was just curious what the ultimate goal would be, and what the dog would be classified as if they're no longer used as a herding dog?
     
  9. crazedACD

    crazedACD Active Member

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    What is your 'mission statement' so to speak with the breed? Are you just seeing where it goes or are you trying to shape the breed in the U.S.? I am interested in the answers on keeping the herding instinct in the breed.

    This isn't meant to be a volatile statement, but I'll admit I am a little surprised that there is no intention to heavily trial/title the foundation dogs. I wouldn't be very concerned if this was a popular breed, but what you do here (if the breeding program takes off) will probably set the tone for the breed in this continent.

    I took a look at the Koolie Club of Australia...I know you have said there are no breeders that current health test, but I did see some that have been approved by the Veterinary Genetic Assurance in Aus. Two Koolie breeders seem to at least be doing DNA profiling for purity and genetic disease. I like that as I'm concerned there is at least some breeders that are creating herding mixes and passing them off as Koolies (particularly the big breeder in the US). Are there any plans to have profiling like that done?

    I'm not so much interested in Koolies, but Kelpies have run kind of parallel to them (they have more presence in the states as ranch dogs) so I do take interest in these threads.
     
  10. TahlzK

    TahlzK New Member

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    I don't understand, why don't people want to health test their Koolies?
     
  11. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    I'm imagining the same reason many papillon people don't. Right or wrong there's a lot of 'old school' breeders out there that don't see the need for all the new fancy stuff. They don't understand genetics in many cases or don't see the need. Unfortunately in toys there's the case of 'well they don't work and HD is no problem so...' and in working dogs 'well the dogs worked for years so they must be sound'... It just takes time to change the norm. Some breeds are further along with the change than others.
     
  12. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    He is coming her first and foremost to be my husband's dog. Classic left a huge hole in our house (physically and emotionally) and it's wearing on us both.

     
  13. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    Yes, they will be. Even the pairing of Zip and Zinga/Didgie (no that's not some crazy doggy threesome :rofl1:) will be line-bred in a sense. We will have to pay close attention to breeding coefficients and I will be relying heavily on experienced breeders as well as my usual go-to veterinarians about this. This is also another reason why health testing is so important to me.

    I'm hoping for more importation of dogs in the future as well as some breeders to start health testing. It might be a hope and a prayer, but that's all we really have going for us right now. In the mean time, I have two generations planned and lets be honest, what breeder has more than that figured out at any point in time? Something could come up that makes me want to scrap the lines all together, I don't know what the future will hold.

    Ok that makes sense. Like I've written some where above, Zing is going back into herding lessons (she had to grow up a bit, her trainer said) and Zip will be at the very least instinct tested but will push for more than that. I don't know a whole lot about herding, it's an area where many of the trainers around me excel, so I will be relying on their input as well. I'm still hoping I can find that person who I can pay to do herding with my dogs, but alas, I think I might just have to suck it up.
     
  14. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    Yes!! I hope so!! I would love to start an actual kennel club here in the states once there is more of a population. A code of ethics will be part of that. Prior to breeding? Who knows. I would love to have on started by then, but it really is reliant on the popularity of the breed.

    I think I answered the first one somewhere above. The breed is very versatile, but again, herding will be an important aspect of this. Even though I like agility more.

    I hope we don't seek out AKC recognition to be honest. It's not something I want to be a part of.

    I work with a herding instructor that is local to me, but even she "borrows" the sheep and the ranch that we use. It's just not a feasible option here. One day, I hope to own acreage where we can keep a decent head of sheep. That'll be in the future though.

    I agree, we have to hope for others to import or others to start health testing. Otherwise, if it fizzles out, it won't be for a while and one of us would be ready to import again.

    The standard would be decided by the breed club and it's members. Which is a huge reason why I want to wait until there is a healthy population of these dogs here before starting one. I want unbiased decisions, I want a board to decide things with members voting.

    As far as a business plan, you are looking at it. This is an adventure, we don't know where it's going to go. All I know is that this breed is awesome, it fits a niche and I want to be able to share them with the people who adore them.

    Again, I answered this a few times above. They will see herding, not as much as if they lived on a sheep ranch, but I can only do what I can.
     
  15. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    I don't think we are trying to "shape" the breed in America per say, just trying to get more of these dogs here. As far as not heavily titling, that's all I do. LOL I'm a professional trainer at a competitive agility school, I wouldn't have a job anymore if I didn't actively trial my dogs. Zinga has already started her disc career (did awesome in her first comp!) and is well on her way with her agility foundations. I have recently looked into getting a HCT title by the AHBA, and will likely have to travel to do that. Any dog I breed will have titles of one sort or another on them. Never a question about that.

    The Australian Koolie Club does recommend DNA profiling, however, I am not impressed by the gene pool in which was chosen to create that DNA profile. I trust the breeders I got my dogs from, and that's all I am currently planning on doing. As far as I know there aren't any genetic disease tests available for koolies, however if there was one developed for Ataxia, I would be all over it. Koolies and kelpies are close relatives and that is a huge genetic health concern with kelpies.
     
  16. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    The opinion is that koolies are free of genetic diseases and that if they are capable of working until they are old that they can't be anything but healthy. There are several flaws with that logic in my opinion, including that no breed can be free of genetic diseases and that most dogs are bred between the ages of 2-6 when they haven't had a life time to prove their health.
     
  17. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Thanks Sara for all that. Makes a lot of sense and I am very eager to see what happens in the future. Know anyone with koolies in my area? I'd love to meet some.
     
  18. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    Zip is such a cutie <3 I can't wait to see how well he fits in with the merley crew. Is your husband super excited?

    Merlin says that if Zinga or Didgie need some new merle australian bloodlines.. he is available ;)
    haha THINK OF HOW FLUFFEH THEY WOULD BE! :rofl1:
     
  19. Kilter

    Kilter New Member

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    I would suggest that you two start something, anything as far as a code of ethics and a club of some sort goes, before someone else does who doesn't think testing is needed or assumes they can breed border collies to heelers and call them 'rare koolies' and making a mess. Just a suggestion. Plus having something online that defines what they are and has solid info will help others learn and get in touch.
     
  20. Cali Mae

    Cali Mae Little dog, big voice

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    Cali's breeder, unfortunately, didn't regularly health test. Although both Cali's parents were CERF clear. Although I wasn't too happy with Cali having luxating patellas, the vet said that even if both parents received ratings of excellent, there's no guarantee.. just a lesser chance.
     

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