Your Definition of Ethics

[Mach1girl]

OK, this is my opinion.

I am not solidly sure on your breed, however I have recently learned something. See if you can follow.

I have discovered that Daizy has Wobblers Syndrom. Now, we still are not positive what it is due to, possibly one of two things...One could be an injury. The other, and I was told this by a Dobie rescue group that has been involved w/ the issue for 20 years, is the food I put the pups on at weaning.

When Dix was pregnant, I had her on Puppy Chow, this was not cutting it when she started nursing, she looked deathly ill, so I did research and switched to the Nutro Large Breed Puppy. Then the pups started to be weaned at 4 weeks old due to the way they were tearing mom up with their teeth nursing, and I automatically put them on the same food in the form of mush.
Now, I am told, that(and I am trying) her diseaes is due to over nutrition. The vertibrae form very fast on extra nutritious food and it in turn does not give the pups bones a chance to calcify fast enough. I was told to switch her to an adult food, and even a generic(er) one like Purina in the green bag for a month or two to stunt her growth to give her bones a chance to catch up.

In other words, this whole disabled uppy thing may have been prevented by using a not so nutritious right off the bat.

Puppy food is high in fat and protein, and I guess the protein was too much.

Maybe, we are trying this route, but honestly, I have been told many times, not to splurge right off...................

 

[Mach1girl]

Ok, so how does this thread keep getting off topic??Lol......

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

What do you want to know, Mach1?

You want to know about my first litter?

You want to know about the temperament problems?

The cancer?

All the elbow issues?

Where do you want to start.

You want to talk about the second one I attempted but had no surviving puppies? The ER section? And then all the puppies dying of parvo later?

Which one would you like to discuss?

There are NO skeletons in my closet, and I have no issue discussing ANY of those things.

However, I DID supervise the birth of each puppy, and I DID do health testing before my bitches were bred, and I DID carefully plan each breeding with the goal of improvement.

I've been a member in good standing of my National Club for 15 years.

So, what was it you wanted to discuss?

 

[J's crew]

What do you want to know, Mach1?

You want to know about my first litter?

You want to know about the temperament problems?

The cancer?

All the elbow issues?

Where do you want to start.

You want to talk about the second one I attempted but had no surviving puppies? The ER section? And then all the puppies dying of parvo later?

Which one would you like to discuss?

There are NO skeletons in my closet, and I have no issue discussing ANY of those things.

However, I DID supervise the birth of each puppy, and I DID do health testing before my bitches were bred, and I DID carefully plan each breeding with the goal of improvement.

I've been a member in good standing of my National Club for 15 years.

So, what was it you wanted to discuss?

Maybe she wanted to discuss the fact that you are breeding a bitch with a bad elbow. Your excuse? That excluding dogs with DJD would severly limit the gene pool. News flash, there are TONS of dogs with correct type AND GOOD HEALTH.
Or maybe she wanted to discuss your stalking. You know, over on www.buybelowcost.com.
Or just maybe she was wondering how a WHOLE litter of puppies can get PARVO without a mistake made somewhere.

Hmmmmm?

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

OK, this is my opinion.

I am not solidly sure on your breed, however I have recently learned something. See if you can follow.

I have discovered that Daizy has Wobblers Syndrom. Now, we still are not positive what it is due to, possibly one of two things...One could be an injury. The other, and I was told this by a Dobie rescue group that has been involved w/ the issue for 20 years, is the food I put the pups on at weaning.

When Dix was pregnant, I had her on Puppy Chow, this was not cutting it when she started nursing, she looked deathly ill, so I did research and switched to the Nutro Large Breed Puppy. Then the pups started to be weaned at 4 weeks old due to the way they were tearing mom up with their teeth nursing, and I automatically put them on the same food in the form of mush.
Now, I am told, that(and I am trying) her diseaes is due to over nutrition. The vertibrae form very fast on extra nutritious food and it in turn does not give the pups bones a chance to calcify fast enough. I was told to switch her to an adult food, and even a generic(er) one like Purina in the green bag for a month or two to stunt her growth to give her bones a chance to catch up.

In other words, this whole disabled uppy thing may have been prevented by using a not so nutritious right off the bat.

Puppy food is high in fat and protein, and I guess the protein was too much.

Maybe, we are trying this route, but honestly, I have been told many times, not to splurge right off...................

Nutro Large Breed Puppy food is formulated to prevent just what you are describing.

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Yes there are many good dog foods out there. Where I live there isn't much of a selection. I live in a town of 15,000 people in Saskatchewan, Canada. I personally love Nutro dog food and swear by it. But that is my opinion and everyone else has their own. Chibree, take what everyone here has said and decide for yourself on which food you want to feed your dog. Like I said I have heard some pretty amazing stories from people that have switched their dogs to Nutro but there are also a ton of other high quality dog foods out there to choose from too.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Maybe she wanted to discuss the fact that you are breeding a bitch with a bad elbow. Your excuse? That excluding dogs with DJD would severly limit the gene pool. News flash, there are TONS of dogs with correct type AND GOOD HEALTH.
Or maybe she wanted to discuss your stalking. You know, over on www.buybelowcost.com.
Or just maybe she was wondering how a WHOLE litter of puppies can get PARVO without a mistake made somewhere.

Hmmmmm?

I will discuss the upcoming breeding of my bitch with anyone who would care to join that discussion.

That is not an excuse. It is a fact that is validated by statistical studies.

From http://www.offa.org/edanswers.html

There are many factors to consider when evaluating the progress of countries that permit breeding Grade I elbows. There may indeed be reasons to consider using Grade I elbows in breeding programs for the purpose of maintaining a broader gene pool, especially in countries where the breed specific rate of ED is approximately 25% or higher (as appears to be the case in some European countries). One must balance the potential consequences as they pertain both to the entire gene pool, and to elbow disease as a part of the gene pool. With a lower rate of ED in many breeds in the U.S., the genetic pressures to include Grade I ED's in most US breeding programs may not be the same as in other countries. Below are two sets of data which may help provide a basis for making a more informed decision whether to breed a dog affected with Grade I ED.

Example 1:
Examination of the OFA database reveals the following mating probability results for 13,151 breeding pairs of dogs with known elbow status:

Normal Elbows x Normal Elbows = 12.2% offspring affected with ED

Normal Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 26.1% - 31.3% offspring affected with ED
Dysplastic Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 41.5% offspring affected with ED

In this very large breeding study (primarily Labrador Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, Rottweilers, and German Shepherd Dogs), the rate of ED more than doubled when one parent was affected, and more than tripled when both parents were affected. In any breed where the overall percentage of affected dogs is already lower than the percentage that can be expected when a dog affected with ED is bred to a normal dog (26.1% - 31.3%), one would find few circumstances in which progress can be made by breeding a dog affected with ED.
Example 2:
Below are some comparative elbow statistics on Golden Retrievers from the BVA (UK) scheme and the OFA.
Of the total of 577 Golden Retrievers evaluated by the BVA (through 2003):
434 are normal (75%)
87 are Grade I (15%)
40 are Grade II (7%)
16 are Grade III (3%)
Total of 143 affected (25%)
Of the total of 9630 Golden Retrievers evaluated by the OFA (through 2003):
8484 are normal (88.1%)
856 are Grade I (8.9%)
187 are Grade II (1.9%)
72 are Grade III (0.7%)
Total of 1115 affected (11.6%)
Comparing that data, it would appear that when the overall percentage of ED in the breed is higher, so also is the overall percentage of Grade II's and Grade III's – the potentially clinically affected dogs. It is also possible that this percentage may increase even more rapidly than the overall breed percentage. Note that while the total percentage of Goldens affected with ED in the UK is approximately double that of the US (25% compared to 11.6%), the percentage of higher grades in the UK is more than triple that of the US (10% compared to 2.6%). Although it is not certain that US Goldens would follow this exact trend if the percentage of ED began to increase, the data is compelling enough to warrant close vigilance and caution regarding potentially breeding dogs with Grade I ED.

Recent percentages of Elbow Dysplasia recorded at the OFA for Rottweilers are:

Rottweilers (By Birth Year)
1990 thru 1993 2,349 Rottweilers evaluated, 40.0% ED
1994 thru 1997 2,660 Rottweilers evaluated, 42.0% ED
1998 thru 2001 2,125 Rottweilers evaluated, 38.4% ED

In light of the fact highlighted above in bold italic underline, the current statistical rate of ED in the Rottweiler is 38.4%. This is 6.1% greater than the statistical probability of affected individuals when breeding a Grade 1 partner to a normal partner.

These are absolute factual statistics from the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals.

I have DONE my research on ED regarding this breeding.

Regarding stalking, the person(s) of whom you are speaking followed ME there, not vice versa.

I do not send this person unsolicited email (as she has me).

The person whom I believe you are referring to is an (in my opinion) undesireable example of a breeder, is breeding animals who (in my opinion) are not of breeding quality (to state it as kindly as possible), is a proven liar, is breeding animals who are not CKC registered (a proven fact) and selling them as CKC registered. (a proven fact).

She has been CONVICTED of such in a court of law, so this is a matter of public record.

This individual (IMO) is harming my breed, of which I am very protective, so therefore I take any opportunity to state my opinions on the subject.

If you want to accuse me of stalking, you'll need better evidence than a few posts on a bulletin board.

 

[Mach1girl]

You keep stalking me! It seems every post I make you got to pick apart!

 

[Boxerowner]

This is a quote from a great friend and breeder of Rotties.

"I would not breed a dog who tested pos for DJD.
Some people do (certainly not people thinking of the future of the breed).
OFA says DJD is like a fair and still can be bred,but they have also told me (years ago) breeding a dog of Border line and mild is Okay.
When people put alot of money into their dogs and have all their hopes and dreams shattered because the dog did not pass a health clearence,they change the rules to suit them selves.
One of the top winning dogs has DJD II (supositly as there is no record on the OFA site to state other wise)and everyone is breeding to him.Soon no one will be able to breed to anything without these DJD lines in them
Back in the day when we found out about HD and started x-raying for that all Possitive dogs were excluted,DJD dogs should be also.
Another thing they tell you to justify them using DJD dogs is that over 40% of the dogs tested have it so you can't excluded.
Last year.
Normal elbows 462 dogs
indeterminate 0
DJD I 56
DJD II 11
DJD III 3
total 70 bad and 462 passing that is no where near 40%.They also say other countrys allow you to breed dogs with DJD I so we should too.It is a genetic thing and some lines have DJD for 3 generations and still they keep breeding them."

 

[J's crew]

You keep stalking me! It seems every post I make you got to pick apart!

Yep, here is some evidence. What about Rottiegirl? Oh, and as far as Vaccaro goes, I do not in any way condone her breeding practices. But she lost a law suit by default, and it had nothing to do with selling a dog not registered with the CKC.

And yes, there are alot of Rottweilers with ED. That is why a responsible breeder breeds AWAY from it. You know, by not including them. Very easy to do. ALOT of ethical breeders have no problem. But I guess in your case what would you do, get yet ANOTHER bitch and start over. Nope, you are desperate for a litter.

And you never answered, how did your puppies get Parvo?

 

[Mach1girl]

ED=(Erectile Dysfunction??"

Lol, I couldnt resist!!!

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Not being rude guys, but it's not exactly hard for a puppy to contract parvo. It's happened to me.

 

[Roxy's CD]

Erm. On the whole, I'll stay out of this, but.. I find it hard to "stalk" someone on the internet. I mean really. If you feel like your being stalked, get up and walk away from the computer! Problem solved!

I also think it's uncalled for to bring stuff from other forums here. Fight about it back there.

As for ED, I know, from going through HD with Roxy, you can have a sire and **** free of HD, and get a litter with puppies that have it.

Of course it would be best to breed away from it, but that doesn't totally avoid the problem.

 

[J's crew]

Not being rude guys, but it's not exactly hard for a puppy to contract parvo. It's happened to me.

Not rude at all. It does happen. But when someone throws another persons mistakes in their face all the time they should get a dose of their own medicine.

 

[J's crew]

ED=(Erectile Dysfunction??"

Lol, I couldnt resist!!!

Now, what's really on your mind???

 

[Serena]

I don't know of any reputable breeders that do NOT immediately spay/neuter dogs found to be affected with genetic ailments.

Breeding a genetically unsound dog is making a sacrifice in a breeding program and it is taking a dangerous and unnecessary risk.

 

[Mach1girl]

 

[Mach1girl]

Ya know, everybody keeps saying, "I dont know of any reputable breeder". I hear this so much (and kudos fo knowing one) But I am beginning to wonder, if everyone that says this phrase actually knows a reputable breeder, then OMG! The reputable breeders out there actually should outweigh the BYBs, and the BYBs may not be the ones contributing to the over population of dogs in our shleters !!

Just a thought!

 

[Boxerowner]

I don't know of any reputable breeders that do NOT immediately spay/neuter dogs found to be affected with genetic ailments.

Breeding a genetically unsound dog is making a sacrifice in a breeding program and it is taking a dangerous and unnecessary risk.

I totally agree!

 

[JFrick]

Ya know, everybody keeps saying, "I dont know of any reputable breeder". I hear this so much (and kudos fo knowing one) But I am beginning to wonder, if everyone that says this phrase actually knows a reputable breeder, then OMG! The reputable breeders out there actually should outweigh the BYBs, and the BYBs may not be the ones contributing to the over population of dogs in our shleters !!

Just a thought!

Couldn't have said it better myself....