Would you buy from a breeder who uses kennels?
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Kuvaszok have their origins running with the Turkic nomad horsemen and guarding their stock and villages. Starting back in the 1400s King Markus of Hungary kept one as his personal companion because of assassination attempts. The dog stayed with him and slept in his room. As a result they were used widely by Hungarian nobility as personal bodyguards (i.e. they lived indoors and accompanied their people everywhere).
The problem with testing/training PP is it isn't the real poop hits the fan your life is in danger deal. It's the same problem you have with herding trials, lure coursing, etc. They aren't day in day out real work and by itself, it's better than nothing but it's still not the real thing. You don't know if your dog will kill a wolf until it really does. You don't know if your dog will herd a pissed ewe trying to protect her lambs on the side of a mountain in a lightning storm until it does, and you don't know if your dog will protect you until some jerk runs up and beats the crap out of you with a piece of rebar. Those dogs definitely exist, but we don't know which ones they are until it happens. Obviously most breeders don't have the ability to test their dogs to that extent, but do the best they can. That's all anybody can ask really.
I don't see police dogs guarding and protecting either. What they do is a lot closer to "hunting". As in, they are on neutral turf or enemy turf, being sent to find and catch the suspect as he either fights or runs away. They're not exclusively there to keep their handler from bodily harm. That's like saying a pack of hounds tracking and engaging cougars out in the woods are protecting you from cougars.
The problem with testing/training PP is it isn't the real poop hits the fan your life is in danger deal. It's the same problem you have with herding trials, lure coursing, etc. They aren't day in day out real work and by itself, it's better than nothing but it's still not the real thing. You don't know if your dog will kill a wolf until it really does. You don't know if your dog will herd a pissed ewe trying to protect her lambs on the side of a mountain in a lightning storm until it does, and you don't know if your dog will protect you until some jerk runs up and beats the crap out of you with a piece of rebar. Those dogs definitely exist, but we don't know which ones they are until it happens. Obviously most breeders don't have the ability to test their dogs to that extent, but do the best they can. That's all anybody can ask really.
I don't see police dogs guarding and protecting either. What they do is a lot closer to "hunting". As in, they are on neutral turf or enemy turf, being sent to find and catch the suspect as he either fights or runs away. They're not exclusively there to keep their handler from bodily harm. That's like saying a pack of hounds tracking and engaging cougars out in the woods are protecting you from cougars.
My dog is an outside animal, she rarely if ever gets to come inside. Not a fan of dogs inside, but thats my personal preference. She is locked up at night and has the run of the yard through the day. We will be looking at putting a run on her 'shed' though, just so we have somewhere to lock her up with some space incase we need to.
I would have no issues buying from a breeders whos dogs are kenneled
I would have no issues buying from a breeders whos dogs are kenneled
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I would absolutely buy a dog from someone that utilizes kennels, Judge's breeder uses kennels and her dogs are wonderful and have no temperament issues or nerve issues.
To touch on the PP thing, a PROPERLY PP trained dog is a beautiful thing. Not every dog doing PP is crap nor are the trainers. My trainer does Schutzhund and K9 dogs and has for years. I've been training Judge in PP stuff since we moved home almost 3 years ago. I know for a FACT that he will do what he was trained to do in REAL life cause he has. He is also very social and can go anywhere with me including doing therapy visits at the local nursing homes. What good is a PP dog that can't go anywhere without worrying about a bite? They're not. A true PP dog to me, needs to be able to go anywhere and do anything, then when a threat is shown the dog needs to react appropiately. To get a dog like mine takes a ton of work and dedication.
To touch on the PP thing, a PROPERLY PP trained dog is a beautiful thing. Not every dog doing PP is crap nor are the trainers. My trainer does Schutzhund and K9 dogs and has for years. I've been training Judge in PP stuff since we moved home almost 3 years ago. I know for a FACT that he will do what he was trained to do in REAL life cause he has. He is also very social and can go anywhere with me including doing therapy visits at the local nursing homes. What good is a PP dog that can't go anywhere without worrying about a bite? They're not. A true PP dog to me, needs to be able to go anywhere and do anything, then when a threat is shown the dog needs to react appropiately. To get a dog like mine takes a ton of work and dedication.
You can't generally keep a dozen Pit Bulls inside the home together without problems, so I assume that any breeder who keeps more than a few is going to use kennels or chains. If their dogs are getting out to shows and trials, I can also reasonably assume that they're getting the kind of work they need. They may not be "house dogs," but I also don't feel like the best dogs are necessarily produced in a situation where someone keeps only a few dogs and breeds their pets. (Not to say that small breeders don't produce great dogs, but it seems like the best breeders have more than that and so yes, their dogs are going to need to be kenneled in some way.)
I just don't like them.
Call me an emotional fuddy duddy but I just..don't lol
I really have tried to remain totally distanced and look at the facts, and I do understand them but ughhh call it crazy I just can't deal with dogs sleeping in kennels and certainly wouldn't go to a breeder that used them.
If you can't tell me if your dog is a cuddler or not, what his favorite toys are, silly quirks, what time he gets up in the morning, where he likes to nap during the day and what he does when you come home.
then frankly, you aren't the breeder for me.
in fact, if you aren't happy to GUSH about those things and MORE. Chances are, you aren't the right breeder for me lol kennel or not :rofl1:
I've just noticed, more often than not (not ALL the time) that breeders that use kennels tend to be more..business-like..with their dogs.
and that just..isn't what rocks my boat.
but hey, people are free to choose whatever kind of boat they like for dogs for them.
this is just my 2 cents.
Call me an emotional fuddy duddy but I just..don't lol
I really have tried to remain totally distanced and look at the facts, and I do understand them but ughhh call it crazy I just can't deal with dogs sleeping in kennels and certainly wouldn't go to a breeder that used them.
If you can't tell me if your dog is a cuddler or not, what his favorite toys are, silly quirks, what time he gets up in the morning, where he likes to nap during the day and what he does when you come home.
then frankly, you aren't the breeder for me.
in fact, if you aren't happy to GUSH about those things and MORE. Chances are, you aren't the right breeder for me lol kennel or not :rofl1:
I've just noticed, more often than not (not ALL the time) that breeders that use kennels tend to be more..business-like..with their dogs.
and that just..isn't what rocks my boat.
but hey, people are free to choose whatever kind of boat they like for dogs for them.
this is just my 2 cents.
Just because a breeder uses kennels doesn't mean they can't tell you these things about their dogs. Logan's breeder knows her dogs very well. I understand that people think kennel and think this:
Logan's breeder uses kennels, and her dogs are more like this:
(None of those photos are mine of course)
To each their own, but using kennels in no way disqualifies a breeder from my lists (obviously lol). Otherwise I wouldn't have this:
Logan's breeder uses kennels, and her dogs are more like this:
(None of those photos are mine of course)
To each their own, but using kennels in no way disqualifies a breeder from my lists (obviously lol). Otherwise I wouldn't have this:
all fair enough points.
But...
Most (not all of course) of the breeders I know who gush are more byb types who ONLY have omg Fluffies fave toy is.. to talk about. Where as breeders who treat it more like a business, or more 'professionally' will be able to talk about titles, health tests, and whats in the lines. People who gush tend to be more kennel blind.
The breeder I got Seren from uses kennels and in a way that wouldn't likely please most chazzers. However he very much loves his dogs and can go on and on about them (usually about how they work.. ) He breeds excellent dogs that make great pets and workers. And he and his wife are really great people.
And those least two things are what I look for in a breeder. Sure I would prefer no kennel, but thats not always possible.
But...
Most (not all of course) of the breeders I know who gush are more byb types who ONLY have omg Fluffies fave toy is.. to talk about. Where as breeders who treat it more like a business, or more 'professionally' will be able to talk about titles, health tests, and whats in the lines. People who gush tend to be more kennel blind.
The breeder I got Seren from uses kennels and in a way that wouldn't likely please most chazzers. However he very much loves his dogs and can go on and on about them (usually about how they work.. ) He breeds excellent dogs that make great pets and workers. And he and his wife are really great people.
And those least two things are what I look for in a breeder. Sure I would prefer no kennel, but thats not always possible.
I totally get what you are saying Fran and again, everyone had the things t that make or break a breeder for them. What you talked about is kinda at the level I put being a good photographer, a nice extra that makes me feel good but not necessary. I tend to put much more weight on the kind of dogs that are being produced rather than the breeders knowledge of their quirks, especially if those don't relate to working.
That being said I do love listening to those harder businesses run breeders get all mushy about a dog every once in a while. So I really do get where you are coming from, I just have very different necessities than you.
That being said I do love listening to those harder businesses run breeders get all mushy about a dog every once in a while. So I really do get where you are coming from, I just have very different necessities than you.
house or kennel doesn't seem to have much to do about the quality of dogs produced IMO. I'm worried about other things like nerves and drives and overall temp. Whether they're raised in a house or kennel has very little to do with anything if they have good nerves and drive I can deal with the rest.
Thanks, Linds, you saved me a lot of typing. Cause this is pretty much exactly what I was going to say. 
Keegan's breeder knew her dogs' quirks so well that I didn't even realize right away that she used kennels. By the time I found out, I really didn't care.
To me, I don't really care if a breeder knows where her dogs' favorite sleeping spots are, or what their favorite toys are. I want my breeder to know much more general traits of the dogs that she produces. A dog's preference about one thing is going to be much more individual anyway, knowing it isn't really useful in helping me predict how my puppy is going to be.
Keegan's breeder knew her dogs' quirks so well that I didn't even realize right away that she used kennels. By the time I found out, I really didn't care.
To me, I don't really care if a breeder knows where her dogs' favorite sleeping spots are, or what their favorite toys are. I want my breeder to know much more general traits of the dogs that she produces. A dog's preference about one thing is going to be much more individual anyway, knowing it isn't really useful in helping me predict how my puppy is going to be.
This. To me, personally, I'd be... I dunno, put off? I guess? By somebody who referred to their dogs and pets, "first and foremost". I mean, hey, you can love your breeding stock, and if you have to cull them from your program, of course you can keep them as pets, but I get antsy when people are analyzing their dogs as "Fluffy, my favorite bed warmer who gives me kisses in the morning" instead of "Fluffy, excellent hips, sustainable drive, good environmental nerves, from X and X lines which produce X, Y, Z traits." IMO, if you're going to breed, the latter MUST take precedence in your mind.
Not saying, Fran, that the breeder you picked out isn't willing to make hard choices or anything, just explaining why I find that stuff a bit off putting instead of appealing. Just a different take on it.
And as Lindsey said, first and foremost for me will ALWAYS be the dogs they are producing, plain and simple. For me, in the end, all of the feel goods about how they raise their stock and pups will not make up for a dog that lacks the drive, structure, stability, etc etc that I'm looking for, which is why I draw my lines where I do.
Not saying, Fran, that the breeder you picked out isn't willing to make hard choices or anything, just explaining why I find that stuff a bit off putting instead of appealing. Just a different take on it.
And as Lindsey said, first and foremost for me will ALWAYS be the dogs they are producing, plain and simple. For me, in the end, all of the feel goods about how they raise their stock and pups will not make up for a dog that lacks the drive, structure, stability, etc etc that I'm looking for, which is why I draw my lines where I do.
I certainly don't mean that all breeder who use kennels don't know that stuff. I know for many, dogs are on rotation in/out of kennel/house, kennels are temp controlled, dogs are out/about a lot and breeder DO KNOW their dogs personally.. so totally not dissing Logan's breeder lol
I just meant, in a general sense, it's not something I personally like to see. and that often time (not ALL the time) breeders who use kennels the majority of the time.. lack the kind of familiarity I like to hear when I talk to a breeder about their dogs.
It's a delicate delicate balance. one that took a WHILE for me to find :rofl1:
I DO NOT put living inside the house above health clearances, titles and lines and what kind of dogs they are producing. ever. To me, in choice of a breeder, that stuff is a GIVEN and a breeder certainly, first and foremost, should be ready to discuss those things.
I just meant as more of the.. icing on the cake? I guess. Once you get passed the basics, the health, the titles, the breed, what you want in a puppy, what they produce, getting to know the breeder/breeding philosophies.. I like to find a breeder who once you get to know them and get all that out of the way... is happy to gush about the seemingly un-important stuff.
but it certainly isn't a trade off for the important things.
It's more of just.. an add on.
I think that's what it all comes down to...necessities.
I like to think everybody has a list of things they NEED/WANT to see in a potential breeder. In most of our lists (including mine) you have the basics/ what most of us would consider a given to even consider a breeder I assume..responsible breeding practices, health testing, temperament of breeding stock etc...
and then after that a list of stuff that factors in from VERY VERY important to some of us, to totally "ehh..would be nice I guess.. but whatever"
For me, things like temperament, living in the home, being family dogs etc.. was on my list, top 10 easily after the good breeder basics.
While working ability (when it comes to sheep/stockwork) was way way below it/and a total non-necessity for me.
and that's where many of us would disagree. What our lists look like, what we like to see, what we need to see and what we consider important.
That part in bold was certainly more important to me than living arrangement and that other stuff.. On my list, that was much higher than house living/family pets because yea, it does affect me much more than where my puppy/where his relatives live
It wasn't really that the information (favorite toys, etc..) was a NEED TO KNOW for me, obviously..it doesn't really pertain to me because it's very individual. It's just..
I dunno how to explain it.. the general attitude I guess? of getting to know a breeder and him/her KNOWING these things, to me, it reflected an image of dog/breeder relationship that I wanted to see.
I totally agree with the part in bold! I don't think I made my point very well.. I don't think living in the house tops the GIVEN important things (structure, health, drive, work, pups they are producing etc..) BY FAR.
and like Dekka said, and like you mentioned.. it's a trait that can lead to some big problems and ones that I ran into quite a few times and I totally see why people might be turned off by the whole idea.
but, done the right way, it's a delicate balance and one that I was very happy to find.
Where a breeder does love their dogs in a personal way. In all their baby talking, frisbee loving glory..
but is not kennel blind or blind to what is MOST important about their breeding program and able to make those tough decisions that benefit the breed as a whole.
I also think it is a matter on how this information is presented.
The little things, personality quirks, toys.. shouldn't be the first thing you read/hear about the dog. Knowing and seeing that a breeder understands the importance of much more important matters is a GIVEN for me.
First and foremost, the dog's main information presented (on their page for example) should be the important things. Why they make great BREEDING dogs and why they are an asset to the breeding program.
but beyond that page and all that information.. the "fun" pages with picture albums of dogs running around at the park, the youtube videos of the dogs playing, a breeder telling a joke about their dog who won't stop bringing them his favorite tennis ball etc..
That's what makes the icing on the cake for me.
I just meant, in a general sense, it's not something I personally like to see. and that often time (not ALL the time) breeders who use kennels the majority of the time.. lack the kind of familiarity I like to hear when I talk to a breeder about their dogs.
It's a delicate delicate balance. one that took a WHILE for me to find :rofl1:
I DO NOT put living inside the house above health clearances, titles and lines and what kind of dogs they are producing. ever. To me, in choice of a breeder, that stuff is a GIVEN and a breeder certainly, first and foremost, should be ready to discuss those things.
I just meant as more of the.. icing on the cake? I guess. Once you get passed the basics, the health, the titles, the breed, what you want in a puppy, what they produce, getting to know the breeder/breeding philosophies.. I like to find a breeder who once you get to know them and get all that out of the way... is happy to gush about the seemingly un-important stuff.
but it certainly isn't a trade off for the important things.
It's more of just.. an add on.
I think that's what it all comes down to...necessities.
I like to think everybody has a list of things they NEED/WANT to see in a potential breeder. In most of our lists (including mine) you have the basics/ what most of us would consider a given to even consider a breeder I assume..responsible breeding practices, health testing, temperament of breeding stock etc...
and then after that a list of stuff that factors in from VERY VERY important to some of us, to totally "ehh..would be nice I guess.. but whatever"
For me, things like temperament, living in the home, being family dogs etc.. was on my list, top 10 easily after the good breeder basics.
While working ability (when it comes to sheep/stockwork) was way way below it/and a total non-necessity for me.
and that's where many of us would disagree. What our lists look like, what we like to see, what we need to see and what we consider important.
Thanks, Linds, you saved me a lot of typing. Cause this is pretty much exactly what I was going to say.
Keegan's breeder knew her dogs' quirks so well that I didn't even realize right away that she used kennels. By the time I found out, I really didn't care.
To me, I don't really care if a breeder knows where her dogs' favorite sleeping spots are, or what their favorite toys are. I want my breeder to know much more general traits of the dogs that she produces. A dog's preference about one thing is going to be much more individual anyway, knowing it isn't really useful in helping me predict how my puppy is going to be.
Keegan's breeder knew her dogs' quirks so well that I didn't even realize right away that she used kennels. By the time I found out, I really didn't care.
To me, I don't really care if a breeder knows where her dogs' favorite sleeping spots are, or what their favorite toys are. I want my breeder to know much more general traits of the dogs that she produces. A dog's preference about one thing is going to be much more individual anyway, knowing it isn't really useful in helping me predict how my puppy is going to be.
It wasn't really that the information (favorite toys, etc..) was a NEED TO KNOW for me, obviously..it doesn't really pertain to me because it's very individual. It's just..
I dunno how to explain it.. the general attitude I guess? of getting to know a breeder and him/her KNOWING these things, to me, it reflected an image of dog/breeder relationship that I wanted to see.
I totally agree with the part in bold! I don't think I made my point very well.. I don't think living in the house tops the GIVEN important things (structure, health, drive, work, pups they are producing etc..) BY FAR.
and like Dekka said, and like you mentioned.. it's a trait that can lead to some big problems and ones that I ran into quite a few times and I totally see why people might be turned off by the whole idea.
but, done the right way, it's a delicate balance and one that I was very happy to find.
Where a breeder does love their dogs in a personal way. In all their baby talking, frisbee loving glory..
but is not kennel blind or blind to what is MOST important about their breeding program and able to make those tough decisions that benefit the breed as a whole.
I also think it is a matter on how this information is presented.
The little things, personality quirks, toys.. shouldn't be the first thing you read/hear about the dog. Knowing and seeing that a breeder understands the importance of much more important matters is a GIVEN for me.
First and foremost, the dog's main information presented (on their page for example) should be the important things. Why they make great BREEDING dogs and why they are an asset to the breeding program.
but beyond that page and all that information.. the "fun" pages with picture albums of dogs running around at the park, the youtube videos of the dogs playing, a breeder telling a joke about their dog who won't stop bringing them his favorite tennis ball etc..
That's what makes the icing on the cake for me.
My take is most breeders will employ some sort of kennel type(crates, chain link fencing inside and/or outside) at some point in their breeding unless they only have 2 dogs and don't work outside of the home. But even then I find it highly doughtful that no type of kennel is used other wise the bitch would be having a litter every heat cycle, and their dogs wold be running wild all over the 'hood. Ivans breeder uses kennels, which are located downstairs in the basement. She rotates (she might not anymore because of her current crew, unless someone is in heat) who is upstairs and gets to sleep in their bed room with them. Some breeders who use kennels exclusively I wouldn't get a pup from but others I might. It just depends like with everything else involved in picking a breeder how everything falls into place.
I tend to agree with Fran in the respect that dogs being in a breeder's home and living with them as family companions is an added bonus, and something I prefer and seek out. Being as my dogs live with me in my home as pets most of the time, I want to know what kind of house dogs my breeder's dogs are. I would not discount a breeder right away if they used a kennel situation, but I would definitely prefer to buy a dog from someone who lived with their dogs in the house and could tell me what they're like to live with daily. I think it's different also depending on what kind of dog you're looking at. I know it seems that working breeders inparticular seem to use a kennel type situation more often than not, and that's an idea that I've had to get used to as it's a very common situation for one of the breeds I am interested in. And it is the only breed where I'd probably even consider buying from such a situation. I know I can find an in home breeder situation for the other two breeds I'm interested in, so it'd be very unlikely (but not impossible) I'd even consider a kennel breeder for those breeds as I know I could find exactly what I want in a breeder who lives with their dogs in their home.
I have a general basis of what I consider to be necessities when it comes to finding a breeder, but there are extra things I look at as well. Some of those being that hopefully the dogs live in the house, that the dogs/puppies recieve a lot of interaction and socializing with all sorts of different things before going home, that I click/connect with a breeder, etc. There are all sorts of things that go into deciding whether a breeder is right for you or not. Where they house their dogs is just part of the equation.
I have a general basis of what I consider to be necessities when it comes to finding a breeder, but there are extra things I look at as well. Some of those being that hopefully the dogs live in the house, that the dogs/puppies recieve a lot of interaction and socializing with all sorts of different things before going home, that I click/connect with a breeder, etc. There are all sorts of things that go into deciding whether a breeder is right for you or not. Where they house their dogs is just part of the equation.
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