Would you buy from a breeder who uses kennels?

[Sweet72947]

With guardian breeds, I want to see that the breeder is producing dogs that are versatile, that can do what they are bred to do, and that they are true to that guarding instinct and can still be a stable companion dog you can take in public with you sometimes (not necessarily to huge crowded events, but for walks in the park and such) without worrying that they will eat someone for looking at them wrong. I want to see that the breeder knows their dogs and does things with their dogs. It can be tricky to do these things with guardian breeds if you are keeping a lot of them at once in kennels. I wouldn't say a kennel is a deal-breaker, but it is hard to gauge their stability in different situations if they don't do much beside sit in a kennel.

Besides, in the guardians they survive on closeness with their people first, food and water second. Being alone too much can literally make them crazy, worse than other dogs.

 

[cliffdog]

With guardian breeds, I want to see that the breeder is producing dogs that are versatile, that can do what they are bred to do, and that they are true to that guarding instinct and can still be a stable companion dog you can take in public with you sometimes (not necessarily to huge crowded events, but for walks in the park and such) without worrying that they will eat someone for looking at them wrong. I want to see that the breeder knows their dogs and does things with their dogs. It can be tricky to do these things with guardian breeds if you are keeping a lot of them at once in kennels. I wouldn't say a kennel is a deal-breaker, but it is hard to gauge their stability in different situations if they don't do much beside sit in a kennel.

Besides, in the guardians they survive on closeness with their people first, food and water second. Being alone too much can literally make them crazy, worse than other dogs.

Don't really agree. Many many Schutzhund (and other bite sport) dogs, possibly even the majority, are raised in a kennel. Just because a dog sleeps outside rather than in doesn't mean the owner doesn't train and breed them properly.

 

[Romy]

Don't really agree. Many many Schutzhund (and other bite sport) dogs, possibly even the majority, are raised in a kennel. Just because a dog sleeps outside rather than in doesn't mean the owner doesn't train and breed them properly.

I think she's referring to real guardian breed dogs like filas and tibetan mastiffs, not herding breeds that have been co-opted for bite sports. Bite sports ≠ guarding. Popular bite sports breeds are not known for trying to bite random stranger's heads off on walks simply because they haven't been socialized.

 

[cliffdog]

The "without worrying that they will eat someone for looking at them wrong" part of her post made me assume she meant breeds TRAINED in protection like Sheps and Dobes. Most true guardian breeds (Fila, Kangal, CAO, Boerboel) will "eat someone for looking at them wrong" as they well should; any one that wouldn't isn't a good example of the breed as they should hate anyone they don't know, period. And these dogs are typically kept outside (with the exception of the Fila, which I don't know about) so naturally they should be able to be kept in a kennel or tie out.

 

[Aleron]

I think she's referring to real guardian breed dogs like filas and tibetan mastiffs, not herding breeds that have been co-opted for bite sports. Bite sports ≠ guarding. Popular bite sports breeds are not known for trying to bite random stranger's heads off on walks simply because they haven't been socialized.

Visit the GSD forum sometime and do some reading on the issues people have with them. Unwanted aggression towards strangers is definitely a problem GSD pet owners struggle with. GSDs are really more a guarding/protection breed with herding roots than a herding breed that is used for protection. They haven't been primarily a herding breed for a very long time.

As for housing sport dogs in a kennel - many people who own them are more interested in the sport than the dogs. I see this especially in Mals. These dogs care usually highly trained though, they just aren't what the owners like living with. This blurb from an article passed around earlier this year pretty much sums that viewpoint up:

"Even in my household where Malinois are part of our lifestyle, we have them for training and not as pets. Our other dogs are pets." http://bayareadogtrainer.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/note-to-the-american-public-belgian-malinois-look-dont-touch/

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

I have a Malinois who needs to be reminded frequently not to eat strangers. She's well bred, well socialized, well trained. She instinctively does not trust. To her protection isn't a comical game, it's a way of life. She's not a herder dog gone for a play date, she's a bred, born, and natural protection dog.

 

[SarahHound]

I personally wouldn't.

Well, maybe a breeder who USES kennels, but not for bitches with pups. I'm a firm believer in the bitch should be in the house with the pups, so they grow up in a household environment. My Auntie got a Rough Collie from a breeder who had kennel dogs, and he was an absolute wreck of a dog his whole life. Scared of everything considered 'normal' for a dog to meet. Apparently several others in the litter were the same, so I don't believe it was just the way she brought him up.

 

[MandyPug]

Well i can't imagine keeping Pugs in kennels. They're just not a breed that does well away from their people. So that'd be a negatory.

 

[Zoom]

I think it would depend on what breed I was going after. Something that was totally a companion breed, like Cavalier or Papillion, I would want to see in the house.

Larger dogs, it would depend on the rest of program and how the pups from previous litters turned out. As has been stated, I don't think kennels are inherently bad. It's a good thing for dogs to learn to chill out and be calm when away from their people, since that's what is going to happen, most likely, when they get to their new home and have to be crate-trained since their people work outside the home. I've seen horrible dogs come from places that were "raised inside w/ the family" and I've seen great dogs come from a place that used kennels.

Most of my other points have already been said by MHMR, Linds and Emily, so I won't repeat, but I do agree with the idea that age has some to do with it, but basic temperament plays a massive part in it. Sawyer came to me at 18 months, I don't have a frickin' clue what his life was like before--he wasn't housebroken (picked it up in a week though), but he's taken everything I've thrown at him and been fine with it. I had him on a fishing boat 4 days after I got him and he was like "ok, that's cool."

 

[stardogs]

Well, maybe a breeder who USES kennels, but not for bitches with pups.

^this. Aeri's breeder does have kennels that she uses for her dogs, but the dogs aren't exclusively kennel dogs, the pups are raised in the house underfoot, and they aren't kenneled because they can't handle living in a house, but because it's more enjoyable for them than being crated (i can't imagine having 7+ malinois/ACD loose in a small house at the same time LOL).

 

[Romy]

The "without worrying that they will eat someone for looking at them wrong" part of her post made me assume she meant breeds TRAINED in protection like Sheps and Dobes. Most true guardian breeds (Fila, Kangal, CAO, Boerboel) will "eat someone for looking at them wrong" as they well should; any one that wouldn't isn't a good example of the breed as they should hate anyone they don't know, period. And these dogs are typically kept outside (with the exception of the Fila, which I don't know about) so naturally they should be able to be kept in a kennel or tie out.

If a dog is trained for protection vs. born naturally protective (like any LGD breed) presumably the training will take care of any inappropriate aggression on walks.

I'm not saying dogs involved in bite sports and german shepherds aren't protective and don't make good guard dogs. Just that because a dog is good at bite sports doesn't mean it will guard/protect. We've had some pretty epic threads on Chaz on the subject, with examples of PP titled mal bitches who let someone break into their house and steal all their puppies, and other sport titled dogs who stood aside as their owner had the "crap beat out of them" in mock, outside of trial scenarios designed to test whether the dog would be any use in a real life assault. Along with dogs who completely failed as candidates because of a lack of nerve coming to the rescue in real life. My life was saved by my aunts Sch reject shepherd. The same dog that snarlyfaced at the prowler and scared him away peed herself when she saw the sheriff get out of his car.

If I was getting a LGD as a companion and not just to toss out with the sheep as predator protection, I'd definitely want a puppy that had extensive socialization with humans. It's because they are so independent and suspicious of strangers that a correct LGD needs that extra knowledge in what is normal non-threatening human behavior, and what is something to be concerned about. Otherwise the dog becomes a liability that cannot function in modern society. I plan to get a kuvasz eventually. We will be looking for one raised with a lot of human contact, and I plan to socialize the puppy the same way I raised my service dog (100 friendly strangers before 15 weeks).

 

[Aleron]

I'm not saying dogs involved in bite sports and german shepherds aren't protective and don't make good guard dogs. Just that because a dog is good at bite sports doesn't mean it will guard/protect. We've had some pretty epic threads on Chaz on the subject, with examples of PP titled mal bitches who let someone break into their house and steal all their puppies, and other sport titled dogs who stood aside as their owner had the "crap beat out of them" in mock, outside of trial scenarios designed to test whether the dog would be any use in a real life assault. Along with dogs who completely failed as candidates because of a lack of nerve coming to the rescue in real life. My life was saved by my aunts Sch reject shepherd. The same dog that snarlyfaced at the prowler and scared him away peed herself when she saw the sheriff get out of his car.

And just because this is the case with some sport dogs doesn't mean it's the case with all of them. I've had a few very naturally protective Belgians (not trained for sport FWIW) would would absolutely not let anyone into the house or yard that they didn't know. My German showline GSD would definitely not back down from a threat and was very naturally protective. My American line male GSD was suspicious of strangers to the point where he wasn't safe to take into all situations, although I think some of his issues were related to seizuring. My remaining American line GSD was somewhat protective in her day but was easily dissuaded and less serious. Even she grabbed someone's arm (just grabbed them, no injuries at all) who unexpectedly walked into our house once. I know a Belgian broke through the glass of their owner's front window and bit someone in the front yard. I could go on and on with examples of naturally protective dogs of these breeds. If anything, one of the most challenging aspects of these breeds for many owners is managing their dog's protective instincts especially if they get one who is on the more suspicious side.

 

[Romy]

And just because this is the case with some sport dogs doesn't mean it's the case with all of them. I've had a few very naturally protective Belgians (not trained for sport FWIW) would would absolutely not let anyone into the house or yard that they didn't know. My German showline GSD would definitely not back down from a threat and was very naturally protective. My American line male GSD was suspicious of strangers to the point where he wasn't safe to take into all situations, although I think some of his issues were related to seizuring. My remaining American line GSD was somewhat protective in her day but was easily dissuaded and less serious. Even she grabbed someone's arm (just grabbed them, no injuries at all) who unexpectedly walked into our house once. I know a Belgian broke through the glass of their owner's front window and bit someone in the front yard. I could go on and on with examples of naturally protective dogs of these breeds. If anything, one of the most challenging aspects of these breeds for many owners is managing their dog's protective instincts especially if they get one who is on the more suspicious side.

My borzoi tried to toothpunch a potential mugger, and almost took my husband's head off when he climbed in the window wearing a hoodie early one morning after getting locked out. Kaia went all snarlyface at a prowler peeping in the window and trying to break in last week. I also know another borzoi who stopped several drug smugglers from entering her owner's home despite being shot and stabbed multiple times (she lived). That doesn't make borzois a guardian breed. I've met far more aussies who were consistently suspicious and guardy of their people and property than shepherds.

My DDR GSD loved strange men and was stolen out of our backyard while my husband was getting ready for work one morning. IME with shepherds, dogs that lunge aggressively at people on walks are extremely unsocialized, untrained, and sometimes unsound temperament-wise. Those were the dogs that were nervous around strangers, would put on a huge show, maybe take a cheap shot, but if someone got serious with them they'd fold.

Dogs in general can be territorial and protective of their families. But there's a reason specific breeds were made to be suspicious. Not socializing a CAO or fila is a LOT harder to undo than not socializing a GSD.

I'm not involved in PP at all, but was under the impression that most bite sport dogs are running off modified prey drive? Please correct me if I'm wrong because I don't know very much about the mechanics of it. I do know that LGDs in general don't have much prey drive at all, which is why there weren't used for herding. Only guarding.

 

[Renee750il]

It would depend on the breed for me.

This.

A companion breed like a Papillon or a Chihuahua? Sure, much better if they're raised in the house.

A Fila? Or any working type for that matter? Totally different, although there needs to be a good amount of interaction with people and having some house time really is a plus.

The "without worrying that they will eat someone for looking at them wrong" part of her post made me assume she meant breeds TRAINED in protection like Sheps and Dobes. Most true guardian breeds (Fila, Kangal, CAO, Boerboel) will "eat someone for looking at them wrong" as they well should; any one that wouldn't isn't a good example of the breed as they should hate anyone they don't know, period. And these dogs are typically kept outside (with the exception of the Fila, which I don't know about) so naturally they should be able to be kept in a kennel or tie out.

Actually, a well bred, sound example of any of those breeds won't "eat someone for looking at them wrong." They will use exactly as much force as is necessary to stop the problem, whether it's as simple as raising a lip or rumbling in the chest to taking a persistent threat down to the ground and subduing it -- to whatever degree necessary.

A sound dog isn't a savage dog.

 

[Aleron]

IME with shepherds, dogs that lunge aggressively at people on walks are extremely unsocialized, untrained, and sometimes unsound temperament-wise. Those were the dogs that were nervous around strangers, would put on a huge show, maybe take a cheap shot, but if someone got serious with them they'd fold.

Not at all what I was talking about with my examples. The dogs I'm talking about are not/were not untrained, unsocialized or unsound.

 

[Romy]

Not at all what I was talking about with my examples. The dogs I'm talking about are not/were not untrained, unsocialized or unsound.

I believe that your dogs are sound and very well trained. But you didn't say you had problems with them lunging at strangers on walks and trying to bite them. You said they were protective of your home.

In your first post you said that it's a common problem with people who have pet GSDs on other forums. How many pet shepherds come from sound breedings with sound parents, and are raised/socialized/trained well by their pet homes? Obviously there was some glitch along the line for them to be having that problem.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

I'm not involved in PP at all, but was under the impression that most bite sport dogs are running off modified prey drive? Please correct me if I'm wrong because I don't know very much about the mechanics of it. I do know that LGDs in general don't have much prey drive at all, which is why there weren't used for herding. Only guarding.

Here is your correction.

Depending on which protection sport you train and which breed you train and how you train will tell you how much prey and defense drive you gear towards.

We start our malinois in prey as puppies and pushed into defense around 2 years. We choose not to allow defense until the dog is mature enough to know when defensive drive is appropriate. This does not mean that drive hasn't existed from day one, you either have it or you do not, we choose not to shape and condition it until 2, other training programs will vary.

That said these dogs don't need to ever see a schutzhund, PSA, Mondio, FR, etc field to have inborn aloofness and protective tendencies.

These breeds when sound should stand up against those they deem a security risk. They are bred to be rather intelligent and hopefully able to read people rather well. They should hold themselves in high regard and not be fearful or overtly aggressive with humans.

To call them herding dogs with prey drive playing a game of biting the suit/sleeve is a laughable joke and a tell tale of education on the breeds and the training/testing designed to evaluate their breed worthiness, something that is in fact not "just a sport".

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

I should add, I question why one would care about an LGD and their dependence on humans (ie being unfit for kennel life?). I mean, the tibetan mastiff we had as a kid was raised with maremma loose with the flock of sheep and only came to us when the owner was having troubles with interdog reactions. The dogs didn't have much to do with the owners and often do not.

My malinois live and breath to interact with us. I'm a bit confused I believe.

About LGD:

They have a love for their master, but never a submission or dependence and never subservience.

 

[Romy]

Here is your correction.

Depending on which protection sport you train and which breed you train and how you train will tell you how much prey and defense drive you gear towards.

We start our malinois in prey as puppies and pushed into defense around 2 years. We choose not to allow defense until the dog is mature enough to know when defensive drive is appropriate. This does not mean that drive hasn't existed from day one, you either have it or you do not, we choose not to shape and condition it until 2, other training programs will vary.

That said these dogs don't need to ever see a schutzhund, PSA, Mondio, FR, etc field to have inborn aloofness and protective tendencies.

These breeds when sound should stand up against those they deem a security risk. They are bred to be rather intelligent and hopefully able to read people rather well. They should hold themselves in high regard and not be fearful or overtly aggressive with humans.

Thanks for explaining that.

To call them herding dogs with prey drive playing a game of biting the suit/sleeve is a laughable joke and a tell tale of education on the breeds and the training/testing designed to evaluate their breed worthiness, something that is in fact not "just a sport".

Belgians and GSDs are young breeds dating back to the late 1800s. They came from herding stock, and were originally bred for herding. They've been selected for PP and guarding for less than 100 years. Their drives and mindsets are so different from traditional guardians like CAO and tibetans who have existed for centuries, if not thousands of years, that the two can't really be compared. Not that one is better or worse than the other, just that they're very different.

Shepherds in general are amazing because they're pretty forgiving of handler errors, want to please you, and can do pretty much any job well (including guarding). That's the thing though, they aren't specialists (anymore). Border collies will, in general, be better at herding sheep. Pointers will be better at bird hunting, greyhounds will be better at open field coursing, malamutes will be better at hauling freight, and LGDs will be better at guarding. The trade off is none of those breeds are very good at everything like the shepherds are.

As for why care about LGDs and their dependence on humans? If I was just going to put them in a field to guard stock it wouldn't matter. If you want one for a companion, it matters very much. I've lived with shepherds and while they're amazing, that obsessively staring my-owner-is-so-cool-I-want-to-BE-them attitude really gets on my nerves. lol. I really prefer aloof, independent dogs like hounds, but love the devotion of the LGDs combined with that independence. It's a totally different dynamic, and something I like living with.

Also, not all LGDs were used exclusively on stock. Kuvasz were originally bred to be bodyguards for nobility, then moved to stock work. Tibetan mastiffs were often left to guard the women and children in the villages from snow leopards and bad people while the men went to work the stock.

 

[pitbullpony]

"Propping up a shi!!er", is the term I've heard used with reference to this topic (schutzhund/PP group).

Meaning a dog bred/born for stability and strong nerves; shouldn't NEED the added "socialization" that an in-house environment will provide over a kennel environment.

Clarification: good breeder that uses kennels isn't raising 8 litters on a concrete pad with no interaction; that starts to head to "puppy mill".

Being raised in a house doesn't necessarily create a sound/confident dog; although if there are any familial/pedigree tendencies towards shyness/fearfulness/nerve issues; by all means socialize away; better that than the alternative.

As for "propping up a shi!!er", although I agree with the context (I've only ever had the out of the box dogs with no nerve issues; and this was a direct result of choosing my bloodlines wisely and knowing the sire/dam and grandsire/dam) I DO NOT agree with the reality.

If you whelp out a litter of say 7 pups; 4 are out of the box ~ balls to wall uber confident little shi!s; are you as a competent and reputable breeder going to just give up on the other 3? Hellz no. You would take those other 3 (along with the uber-4) (who you would be aware of; as a competent and reputable breeder who has been evaluating the litter since it was born) and you would do your damnedest to hyper-socialize the little buggers, and make sure that those pups went to homes that could keep the socialization up and make them into well-rounded little canines.

I look more for what people are doing with adults; the sire/dam of my pup. I want the breeder to know in and out the reactions of the sire/dam to all sorts of stimuli; thus meaning the breeder has actually exposed the sire/dam to different stimuli. Breeders who then go on to stimulate litters, evaluate litters and expose both litters and independent pups to a variety of stimuli in a safe environment, those are breeders I would be looking into.

As for guardian breeds; I've owned a CAS and now a Boerboel. I would be very hesitant to buy from someone who only ran kenneled dogs. Rotated in and out would be preferred, a specific favoured dog that got more inside time I would also understand. I want to know that the sire/dam are dogs that are capable of bonding to their person, I also want to know that the breeder is capable of reading what a defensive driven dog acts like. I want to see some social aspect of the dog; suitable to their breed. They don't need to like people not of their pack; but they don't need to try to eat me when I am a neutral stranger.

They really do prefer to be with their people as do most dogs; you own their soul. Dora was born to protect and takes her job seriously. She's not an asshole about it though; you are absolutely permitted to walk past me; but you are not allowed to approach me without honest intentions. Angry words will get you no where, you are not allowed to approach us from behind and for god's sake; get that **** hoodie off your head and do not think you will be opening the door to our horse trailer or truck, whether we are in or out.

We frequently visit Niagara Falls, dog shows, horse shows, fairs and all other functions that dogs are allowed; she loves to greet people in a neutral environment. Kim; my CAS was similar; a bit more defense driven; where Dora has very little defense in her mind. Both were very territorial; Kim a bit more defensive about it (suitable to the CAS); Dora a little more domineering (don't know what kind of drive you'd term it).