Wolf Hunting Breeds?

Discussion in 'The Dog Breeds' started by Crowsfeet, Dec 26, 2011.

  1. Crowsfeet

    Crowsfeet facetious.

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    Dear Chazhound,

    Can someone speak up about some breeds traditionally used to hunt wolves, specifically? Sighthounds, Molossers.. ? What kind.. ? Or, hunters, if theoretically(it is illegal in the lower US, at least) you were to track/hunt/bag wolves, what would your ideal team consist of, to do that? Would a pack of these dogs be able to take down wolves in the wild?

    I'm involved in an interesting debate right now :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2011
  2. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    the Tazi breeds of central asia (the borzoi is a breed within this group) are the only breeds currently being used to hunt wolves on a large scale (unless you count coyotes which are referred to as brush wolves & the hunters wolfers). they are used in groups of at least three on a small/medium species of wolf. true small wolves like the iranian wolves killed by Kangal LGDs are only about 35-45# normally and anything over 60 would be freak of nature huge. the steppe wolves hunted w/ tazis are normally 40-60 and anything over 75# is a freak of nature. ETA the tazis are typically 60-75# & run in packs of 5-10 on one wolf.
    the Irish wolfhound is a recreation begun in the mid 1800s. Major Richardson started w/ deerhoundXdane. Captain Augustus Graham started w/ Richardson stock but discarded it in favor of heavier built pure deerhounds. eventually he added a touch of Richardson's stock to consistantly get a heavier built dog. the modern show deerhound is close to this. the KC show fancy added more dane until the breed essentially became a wirehaired dane. the modern Irish has had some individuals used as kill dogs on coyote toward the end of the 19th & beginning of the 20th centuries. these dogs were bred into existing staghound lines and any influence has long since been bred away.
    the original irish wolfhound was similar in type to the overly "elegant" danes. heavier than other sighthounds but still lighter built than the average dane. it came in both smooth & rough coat. if ancient irish arts & crafts are any indication the smooth was the predominant choice back then.
    FWIW all the LGDs reputed to awesome one on one wolf killers are very large but leggy breeds facing small to medium sized wolves. there are no LGDs w/a reputation of killing the large wolves one on one, that's why the Samoyed & Saami reindeer herders don't have LGDs. also small and medium wolves have different social structures that result in smaller less aggressive packs. a small 75# canadian grey bitch is more dangerous than a 90# mexican grey or two 60# NC red wolves, just because of their different typical personalities.

    depends how we are taking the wolves & what wolves are we taking. i'd like to try some american & aussie staghounds (from lines used to hunt dingo) against the small & medium wolf species like iranian/indian, red wolves of NC, iberian/italian, himalayan, mexican grey & central asian steppe.
    now to build a sighthound for catching & killing the large canadian greys introduced into yellowstone, i'd start w/ stags & maybe borzoi that are taking big dakota, iowa & minnesota coyotes one out. that is they are CONSISTANTLY killing the 40-45# and bigger coyotes one on one. then i'd cross in known killer/fighting/hunting molossers sage koochee, kangal, boz, bully kutta, presa canario, dogo, fila & tosa. i might also consider crossing in certain northern/herding breeds malamute, east siberian laika, & the biggest roughest malinois, dutch sheperd & heelers i could find. i would work & build each line of PRODUCTIVE cross to achieve a certain general type; tall heavy sighthound build (30" min 34-36" ideal and 110# min 120-130# ideal), heavy wedge shaped sighthound style head. the minimum standard of performance would be one out on a small wolf or LARGE coyote and they would have to totally smash it like a staghound does fox. then, and only then, i would run them on the big wolves in groups of 3-5 (matched by speed & endurance) on one wolf. i'd probably have to keep the crosses 5/8-7/8 sighthound.

    for scenthounds, same concept of mixing in hard molloser, a bit of sighthound (max 1/8) on a scenthound base. the scent hounds used would be a combination of the hardest breeds & the biggest field breeds: plott, july, croghan, goodman, bluetick (especially the big gascon type), majestic, & british staghounds. might consider some cur blood too like a good hunting ridgeback, larry parker curs, mason catahoula, & carnathon black mouths. the ideal end product would be a fast hard deep bottom hound 30-36" 120-140# w/a thick hide, dense bone & strong jaw. pack size would be based on wolf pack size w/a ratio at least 1.8:1. although not an absolute necessity, oversized canine teeth like on sighthounds would be a plus.

    all dogs would run some kind of spiked collar to SLIGHTY improve survivability.
    now for small & medium wolves i'd just run july, croghan, goodman & british stags in moderate sized packs (5-8)
    & yes i'm saying there is no breed currently in existance & no first cross as a whole that would be equiped to jump right into the job.
     
  3. PetDogPro

    PetDogPro New Member

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    Thanks Pops2. You made this a very interesting post
     
  4. Gempress

    Gempress Walks into Mordor

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    My father-in-law remembers hunting down coyotes with dogs when he was a boy. They used a pack of 2-3 greyhounds along with a scenthound or two. The scenthounds would pick up the trail and get the pack close, then the greyhounds would run the coyotes down when they got close enough. I could see the same combo working well with wolves.
     
  5. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    it's still done this way by many wolfers. they turn out a couple of foxhounds on the track. they get in front of the race. when the coyote breaks cover the stags &/or coldbloods are slipped on him. likewise if it starts as a sight race & they lose him, the foxhounds are dropped where the longdogs lost him.

    as for the combo working w/ wolves, depends on the wolves. a moderate sized canadian grey would shred those 3-4 dogs but a red or iranian wolf wouldn't be much more to deal with than a coyote. the recorded bite pressures of a 90-120# canadian grey varies from a low of 800 PSI to a high of 1500 PSI. by comparison 250-300# african lions have only recorded bites between 800-1000 PSI. the highest pressures from the largest dogs are still only just reaching 800 PSI. even our working dogs are softer now than their counterparts 100 years ago. IMO it'll take all new purpose built dogs to deal w/ the big canadian greys.
     
  6. fordraceing_man

    fordraceing_man New Member

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    People hunt Coyotes by me all winter long... they just drive around and look for the tracks in the snow then they let there dogs out and they drive to the other side of the property and the dogs push the coyotes out then the guys shoot them.

    I've never done it and have no interest in doing it but thats what they do around here, i don't think it matter what kind of dog people use as long as they are obident
     
  7. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    The local hunt club often goes after coyote. They have foxhounds (obviously as this is the tally ho off to the hounds, where is my hip flask sort of hunting) and the dogs take down the coyote if and when they catch it.

    I don't think its super typical, but we don't have much fox and the coyotes are a serious nuisance so farmers are often quite willing to have the hunt come through their land if they are after coyotes.

    (here the coyotes are crossing with wolves creating a new hybrid that is quite fit and doing much better than the wolves. So they are actually likely hunting those too)
     
  8. Crowsfeet

    Crowsfeet facetious.

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    Thank you so much, Pops! I was hoping you would post - great job!
    And, forgive me if I'm wrong, but essentially in your quest to build the ultimate, honest Wolfhound, would you be creating some very hardcore lurchers?
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2011
  9. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    essentially yes.
    for the scenthounds it would be like recreating the original bloodhound & the alaunt gentile
     
  10. SpicyBulldog

    SpicyBulldog New Member

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    Interesting read

    Caucasian Ovcharka and Kangal have the ability to kill coyotes and smaller wolves.

    I'm not sure how to create the perfecr wolf killer but enjoyed pops post.
     
  11. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    I have two borzois and while I'll never have the chance to test them on real wolves, they've both had solo kills on coyotes. We've never taken them formal coyote hunting, just walks in the 20 acre pasture and if they happen to see one woe unto that coyote. Usually they just run the coyote down and break its neck. After the first one they pulled through the fence (it was a dumb coyote) I've never seen them break the skin. They're the same way when they kill raccoons.

    My dog's sire is used as a LGD on a goat dairy, and he's had solo kills on small groups of coyotes that came and tried to break into the kid pen. He needed a little stitching up afterward, but was always fine.
     

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