White GSD, Dobermans, and Boxers

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by ACooper, Jan 5, 2010.

  1. ACooper

    ACooper Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Messages:
    27,771
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    IN
    I am starting this thread in regards to the other misconception thread so as not to take it over, LOL

    So far, we are discussing White GSD and why they can't be shown in the ring.

    These are some quotes from the other thread, so you know what is going on, LOL


     
  2. ACooper

    ACooper Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Messages:
    27,771
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    IN
    Now this one I had some questions about.

    1.) WHAT is a yellow doberman? :confused: Never heard of such a thing, LOL

    2.) Can you elaborate a little more on those genetic issues found in white GSD? I wasn't aware of any, and am STILL curious as to WHY they can't be shown in the ring.
     
  3. jess2416

    jess2416 Who woulda thought

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2006
    Messages:
    22,560
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    1
    Location:
    NC
    Maybe she means Fawn ?

    *read it wrong nevermind!!*
     
  4. Spiritwind

    Spiritwind New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2009
    Messages:
    212
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    North Carolina

    Not sure about the yellow doberman, never heard of that one... but as far as the White GSD and not being allowed to show them in conformation.... you have to go to the breed standard for that one.

    It may have NOTHING what so ever to do with health. There are several breeds out there that come in colors that are not allowed to be shown, per the breed standard. It (often) has nothing to do with any health issues associated with that color, it has to do with the original dogs (of whatever breed) and the standard that was created for that breed when the breed was created, and the breeds parent club controls whether to change that part of the standard to include other, undesirable colors..

    Certain standards specifically have a color disqualification, or size or any other disqualification. Though not all standards are like this.

    The collie standard for instance, there has been a HUGE debate over the past year among the Collie people and the CCA as to whether or not Sable Merles should be added to the standard for allowed colors, currently the allowed colors are sable and white, blue merle, tri-color and White (color headed white)..

    However, there is not a color disqualification in the Collie breed standard... While sable merles are not mentioned in the standard for allowed colors, there are many sable merles that are shown and finished, because there is no DQ for it.... sure some judges will excuse an obvious sable merle, but most don't seem to mind them... the #1 ranked smooth collie for 2008 was a sable merle.

    Sable Merles have no health issues associated with the color... than any of the others have (other than breeding merle x merle)....

    On the other hand in Europe White collies (color headed whites) are not allowed to be shown (are not mentioned in their standard)... and most won't breed them, however in the US and Canada color headed whites are allowed to be shown and are obviously bred. Again there is no health issue associated with the color headed whites (not to be confused with Double Dilutes).... The European breeders I've talked to are also very against sable merles, where as they are more accepted in North America, and sable merles are listed in the Canadian breed standard.
     
  5. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2006
    Messages:
    10,233
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Olympia, WA
    Okay, I had to go edit my other reply, pasting it in here:

    That's the thing though. In GSDs, white has zero association with genetic probs. Zero. It was thought to be, but that has been proven false. They are no more likely to have problems than a samoyed. Dobies have problems because they are albino. I don't know much about white boxers so won't comment on that.

    Also, white has existed within the german shepherd breed since it was created (the grandsire of a founding dog was white, if I remember right. One of the GSD gurus on here will correct me if I'm wrong. :) )

    So there isn't any reason to exclude the color based on possible outcrossing, like you would with merle in a breed where merle didn't always exist (chihuahuas come to mind).

    It's interesting that in the UKC GSD breed standard, white is allowed. I think they can also be dual registered with the white shepherd registry? Have to check up on that. The only color disqualification in the UKC ring is albino, which white shepherds are not.
     
  6. MandyPug

    MandyPug Sport Model Pug

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    5,332
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    1
    Location:
    Southern Alberta
    From what i've heard... White boxers can be genetically sound and it's not even a mutation, just a colour that is dangerous. If you breed a white to a white it can potentially be dangerous. There's a higher incidence of skin issues, blindness, deafness, and even still borns when breeding white to white. Kinda like that one coat colour in collies/shelties that result in bad things (double dilutes right?) but some can potentially come out fine.

    Don't know if it's all true, i'm no boxer expert. But that's what i've gleaned from an ex-boxer breeder who had a white in her stock.
     
  7. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,381
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    7
    Location:
    Midwest
    White GSD's don't have any inherent problems because of the coat color. There's lots of misconceptions out there about them. and the great grandsire of Horand was white, but white GSD's were not really part of the GSD breed, not much.

    Lots of people say they were exluded because of the "Nazi's" . I don't really buy that as the founder of the breed and SV stated long before the nazi's ever did anything in Germany that even though no good dog can be a bad color, white's were not be selected for, and in fact should be excluded from breeding.

    So almost from the begining whites were frowned upon for breeding. Lots of testing and lots of work went into creating the breed and the facts remain the same that other than the US where dog fanciers kind of took over and kept whites going, the working and serious GSD's were not white.

    So while there are some now that are working towards breeding good WGSD's or Swiss whatever, most have been selected based upon some recessive genes alone for many generations by breeders not following the working standard that created a noble breed. Breeding for such narrow traits results in poor quality dogs. But i'm not so sure the quality is any less than what most GSD breeder's in this country are producing. Most don't even know their own dogs, let alone know about breeding, or what a GSD is or should be.
     
  8. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    64,812
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I can remember when white boxers were put down at whelp . Friends of mine kept one but never bred it . Rescuing is one thing ~ breeding is another .
     
  9. AGonzalez

    AGonzalez Not a lurker

    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    Messages:
    3,702
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    White GSD's are undesireable for things like police work because, well let's face it, a white dog stands out at night...not exactly what you want when you're trying to raid a drug dealers house, lol.

    I'll have to get a picture of my mom's wolf hybrid that we had when I was growing up. He was white GSD crossed on a black and tan GSD/wolf mixed bitch. So while very little wolf in him, he was interesting looking. White, bigger than a GSD, yellow eyes...and pink pigmented nose. I remember we used tattoo ink on his nose in the summer since he sunburned so bad.

    That being said, I cannot think of any health concerns that are prevalent in white GSD's specifically, but affect the breed as a whole.
     
  10. sammgirl

    sammgirl ACoops favorite

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    845
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I posted exactly what ACampbell said with out seeing what she typed.

    I totally agree!
     
  11. AGonzalez

    AGonzalez Not a lurker

    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    Messages:
    3,702
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    LOL great minds and all that. I think that's where the idea of the whole "nazi" thing comes in, because they wouldn't use whites because of the visibility factor.
     
  12. ACooper

    ACooper Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Messages:
    27,771
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    IN
    I can totally understand the "visibility factor" LOL.........makes perfect sense :)

    Good to know that White GSD are not any more at risk for health issues than their colored counterparts! That is what I always thought........but when it was mentioned they weren't allowed in the show ring it confused me ;)
     
  13. AGonzalez

    AGonzalez Not a lurker

    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    Messages:
    3,702
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Depends on the show ring, for AKC no, not allowed, DQ fault...but UKC allows them I believe, not sure if it's under Suisse Shepherd or GSD though as I'm not too familiar with the UKC.
     
  14. ACooper

    ACooper Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Messages:
    27,771
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    IN
    OH! And that reminds me, another question! hahahaha, I am full of them tonight eh?

    When it comes to this "Swiss Shepherd"..........when a white pup is born to "regular marked" parents, do they just yank the pup from the "GSD" breed and toss it into the "Swiss Shepherd" side of things? Or do these pups come from White dam, White sire, with white siblings? Does that makes sense?
     
  15. Artfish

    Artfish Drivey and Intense

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Max v Stephanitz, the breed founder, never liked a solid colored dog. He did also say that "No good dog is a bad color," with which I do agree.

    White became a disqualification in the 60's but in 1959 they apparently began DQ'ing dogs that were 50% or more white. That is the GSDCA standard, not sure when the SV starting nixing white dogs. I do believe Germany practiced heavy culling in litters until recently, and may still do with the showlines. At the time, the worry was health but as stated above, they later realized that health has nothing to do with the white gene in the GSD. White is just a masking color- the dog could be a black sable or solid black but appear totally white due to that masking gene.

    Honestly, if a panda-colored German shepherd has absolute bomb-proof temperament, perfect health, and unbelievable work ethic, I'd take it and breed it in a heartbeat, nuts to the color. This is a WORKING breed and color should not be a concern when there are more pressing needs like health/temperament/ability needing attention!
     
  16. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,381
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    7
    Location:
    Midwest
    I think the swiss shep people use a known lineage of white dogs. I don't know if they have an open stud book or not.
     
  17. ACooper

    ACooper Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Messages:
    27,771
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    IN
    Ah ok. I wasn't sure if it was something like beagles with the different sizes into different categories.........which actually you can get ALL the categories from one litter sometimes, LOL

    I think I'm done "hounding" for answers tonight, LOL
     
  18. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2006
    Messages:
    10,233
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Olympia, WA
    The visibility issue isn't the same as in years past though. In America, when cops release a dog after a suspect, they are required to announce that they are releasing a dog. It's not like the dude is going to see a white dog coming and outrun it or anything.

    Also, in recent years many more police dogs have been accidentally killed by friendly fire than by suspects shooting them. Having a highly visible dog becomes an asset in that sort of situation.
     
  19. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,381
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    7
    Location:
    Midwest
    No visibility probably isn't the issue, it's an issue of no serious working breeder's using them and testing them for the past hundred years that the chance of finding one capable of performing the work is pretty low.
     
  20. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2006
    Messages:
    10,233
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Olympia, WA
    That is the problem. My little brother got assigned to the county K9 unit a while ago. He said they were looking for a lighter colored dog but couldn't find any available from proven, serious working kennels that were silver or white. Everybody is using Czech stuff now, and most of those dogs are black or sable.
     

Share This Page