white dobie???????

Discussion in 'The Dog Breeds' started by luvmydogs, Jul 13, 2005.

  1. bridey_01

    bridey_01 Kelpiefied

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    The silver is often faded from black, as in the case of my "blue" kelpie. She is the exact same colouring as those labs, with the striking eyes. But, with her rangy build people ask me if she i part wolf:)
     
  2. DoberAdmin

    DoberAdmin Crazy Dobe Owner

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    It is such ashame that people will breed the Albino dog just for the almighty dollar.

    The white Doberman is known to have significant health problems yet people are still trying to buy them so bredders will continue to breed them.

    The only solution is to educate people that the white Doberman should not be sought after, maybe if the market dries up and there is no money to be made the breeders will stop breeding white Dobermans.

    DA
     
  3. sammydawg

    sammydawg Guest

    People with albinism don't have red eyes-- at least not the two I know personally. One is a young chinese boy-- he has eye collar very similar to that dobie! He is the strangest looking (but sorta neat lookin) kid I have ever seen-- but like I said-- with albinism comes vision loss/ problems-- People purposely breeding them should give their heads a shake.
     
  4. EliNHunter

    EliNHunter New Member

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    Do a google search under images for Edgar Winter (you know, the rock and roll guy from the 70's?). He's an albino and has pink/red eyes...
     
  5. frznbuns

    frznbuns New Member

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    this is a little long but I hope it will educate some. I own a Blue female Doberman and 3 Blacks. Next, White dobermans are not Isabelle, This is a name for Fawn Dobermans as noted by AKC. White Dobeman should not be Breed because of the many health problems that they can have. They have more skin problem also! People who are breeding Whites and labling them as RARE are just trying to make a BUCK!
    Good Breeders are there to make the breed better! Not Breed in the problems that can happen! :mad:
    Blue and fawn Dobermans often suffer from a condition called Color Dilution Alopecia (CDA). CDA is a form of follicular dysplasia (FD). Reds and blacks can suffer from FD. The symptoms of CDA include bilateral balding, which commonly begins on the flanks or along the topline and spreads down the back.
    Severe cases may begin as puppies, although the vast majority of puppy problems turn out to be simple "puppy staph." In a typical case of CDA, the coat may not begin to thin until the dog is between one and three years of age. In severe (and rare) cases, all the blue (or fawn) hairs can fall out. Most often, dogs with CDA end up with very thin coats along their back and flanks, but do not go completely bald. The dogs remain healthy and happy, despite a thin coat.CDA IS NOT ASSOCIATED WITH ANY OTHER HEALTH PROBLEMS! However, CDA can occur in combination with other problems like severe folliculitis and opportunistic bacterial infections. Please note that folliculitis occurs in ALL COLORS of the Doberman -- it is not a "blue problem." "Bumps" cause by opportunistic infections sometimes seen in Dobermans with CDA can be treated with antibiotics, Some bumps are due to dysplasia of the hair follicle, and will not respond to antibiotics. Often times, the grooming and supplement may be enough to keep the skin healthy and keep the bumps under control.
    Unfortunately, there is *A LOT* of ignorance among reputable Doberman people when it comes to blue or Fawn Dobermans. Blues and fawns are just as healthy as any other color. Not all have coat problems. When they suffer from CDA, it is only a cosmetic condition unless accompanied by opportunistic infections. The cosmetic hair loss is comparable to balding in men (although they have different causes). It is not as noticeable as you might think, luckily the skin color is similar to the blueor fawn hairs. It is thought that CDA is somehow linked to the dilution gene. (For a basic discussion of genetics, see my Color Genetics in the Doberman page.) However, not all blue or fawn Dobermans will get CDA. For those who get it, there is a wide range of severity. Some people believe that a mutated dilution gene is involved. (NOTE: The dilution gene itself is *NOT* a mutated gene or genetic defect. It has been with the Doberman since the beginning. Many people believe that it was introduced through use of the weimeriner.) Other people think that there is some other independent genetic factor that when COUPLED WITH healthy dilution genes results in CDA. I tend to believe the latter, since a single litter of dilutes can produce both good and poor coats.
    There has been no demonstrated link with the dilution gene in a form of FD in reds that mimics CDA (many of these reds do NOT carry dilution). Because CDA is thought to have a genetic link, blues and fawns should not be bred until they reach three years old or so, and still have a good coat. (No Doberman should be bred unless it is a superior specimen and will improve the breed as a whole, but this is a discussion for another day. Note that a "good coat" for blues or fawns is still thinner than the average black or red coat (they have less hair per square inch of skin). There is a possibility that environmental factors may play a role, at least in the severity of the disease.
    Next, White dobermans are not Isabelle, This is a name for Fawn Dobermans as noted by AKC. White Dobeman should not be Breed because of the many health problems that they can have. They have more skin problem also!
    I hope this educated some and there are a lot of websites that can educate people on white Dobermans.
    Thanks for listening to me
    Proud Owner of 4 fine loving Dobermans :)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
  6. Manchesters

    Manchesters Guest


    BALONEY!!!! None of the above has one iota of fact included in it. I am sorry to sound like such a meanie, Stirder, but I think you should stick to information like obedience or Schutzhund. Leave the genetic discussions for those who know the subject.

    I owned the first two Blue Dobermans in Pensacola. The male had a gorgeous thick coat. My female had skin problems caused by the sand and humidity in Florida. The fawn Doberman is the ISABELLA. Has nothing to do with white. The white Doberman is NOT an albino dog. Dilute colored dogs DO NOT have lower immunities. And I have no clue where you got the hair follicle debacle from.

    I would think that you might want to stick to obedience work with dogs, and leave the breeding/genetics topics to those who know the subject! Although I must admit I did get a real laugh out of this post!

    I know you want to help, but it might be better if you were more circumspect in what you post. Whatever "breeders" told you any of that stuff are nuts. Or else you did not absorb what they told you. It is a lot of information to try to remember straight.
     
  7. Melissa_W

    Melissa_W New Member

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    A quick good search turns up some sad results.

    WHITE DOBERMANS

    In 1980's the white Doberman made it's appearance and it has been found that the white gene is a separate gene, and is located at a different genetic site (locus) than the color (B) and dilution (D) that is the basis of the four allowed colors for the Doberman. The white gene does not interfere with these four known colors of the Doberman and does not need to be included in the color chart.

    The white Doberman is considered an incomplete or partial albino. The dogs have blue eyes and are cream colored with light tan markings. The dogs suffer from photo phobia (photosensitive). This means the dogs cannot tolerate light, often closing their eyes and bumping into objects when put in unfamiliar surroundings. Their temperaments range from being very shy to fear biters. These are not the attributes a responsible breeder or one that is familiar with the criteria of a working dog wish to produce or perpetuate.

    WARNING: The white Doberman is NOT considered to be of great value (charging more/more expensive) by Responsible Breeders. Responsible Breeders DO NOT include the white Doberman in their breeding stock/programs.

    The WHITE color is a DISQUALIFICATION and these dogs CANNOT COMPETE in the conformation ring.



    Why does the DPCA reject the Albino?

    We know that these dogs are photophobic, (sensitive to sun light). They have vision problems resulting from abnormal development of the retina.

    They are prone to skin cancer and skin lesions. Due to the lack of pigment, they are extremely susceptible to skin damage from the sun.

    Poor temperament is a significant concern. Due to the intense inbreeding to obtain the mutation, the temperaments on a great many are totally unstable. These problems range from fear biting to outright vicious attacks. Shyness is prevalent. Most are not suitable for homes with small children. Yes, there are exceptions, but hardly enough to make them acceptable to most families.

    In addition to the above problems concerning health and temperament, these dogs have a total lack of breed type.

    There is dialog currently between the DPCA and the American Kennel Club to impose a breeding restriction on the Albinos. They would still be registered, but would have the same restrictions as an ILP registered dog. Owners would not be allowed to register any progeny of the Albinos.

    While negotiations continue, the DPCA is utilizing a tracking system, call The "Z" List. This tracking system identifies any dogs that may carry this mutant gene. It enables ethical breeders to avoid breeding to animals with the defect.

    While we can understand the attachment one can have for animals of all colors, sizes, shapes and pedigreed or not, we must realize that the Doberman Pinscher was a breed created for a purpose.

    A standard of excellence was drawn up describing what the ideal Doberman should look like, how it should act, and what colors it should be. Albino cannot be classified as a color. It is just the opposite. It is the lack of color.

    No recognized standard would call for a dog that is Albinoid. It is a genetic defect in all creatures.
     
  8. Manchesters

    Manchesters Guest

    Thank You, Melissa!

    I should have done that, if I weren't so lazy. It is so much better to have actual, factual information presented instead of old wives tales and MISinformation! Again, thank you for taking the time and making the effort to find and post that info!!!!!
     
  9. wildwings811

    wildwings811 a.k.a: agilitydobemom

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    Seeing that I just read this thread and wanted to set things straight about the "white" Doberman Pinscher I know it is long but there is some really good info on here

    Taken from DPCA's Z-Free Book Information and policy on the mutant albino Doberman

    Historical Facts

    1976-on Nov 10 two black and rust parents produced 11 black and rust puppies and one female mutant (white in color, translucent blue eyes, pink nose, eye rims, and foot pads)

    1979-the owner of the mutant ***** appllied for AKC registration. The blue slip was returned along with a letter from AKC explaining that Albino is not a color. He substituted the word "white" for albino and AKC registered the first "white" Doberman in its history! The owner then began an incestuous breeding program designed to exploit this novelty product, blessed with unlimited AKC registration

    1981-The DPCA upon hearing of the existence of these animals asked AKC to investigate. AKC investigators went on site and concluded that Shebah was the offspring of AKC registered parents and therefore eligible for AKC registration.

    1982-The DPCA had the foresight to amend its standard: "Disqualification.....Dogs not of an allowed color"

    1983-The DPCA formed the White Doberman Research Committee. Two albinistic puppies from albinistic parents were acquired. A five year study showed:

    A. They were photo-sensitive, hyperactive fear biters, and prone to solar skin damage

    B. Calculated test breeding proved the genetic fault is caused by a recessive masking gene independent of the color black gene (B), the color red gene (b), the non dilution gene (D), and the dilution gene (d) which produces our four allowed colors

    C. Microscopic examination of hair and skin revealed few color cells, hypomelanocytic. These animals are memebers of the descriptive spectrum of albinism.

    1990-1994-Registration of "white" Dobermans INCREASED 475%

    1994-In March the DPCA asked the AKC Board of Directors to deny registration to "white" Dobermans. AKC asked the DPCA to poll its membership regarding this issue. 98.8% of the 1153 votes opposed the breeding and registration of "white" Dobermans (as they were called at the time)

    1995-To date AKC has registered over 560 "white" Dobermans. Possibly six times that number of normal colored litter mates carry the hidden genetic defect. The DPCA needed immediate action. Colored litter mates carrying the albinistic trait continued to contaminate our gene pool unchecked.

    Apr. 1995-The AKC Board of Directors unanimously denied DPCA's original request to halt the registration of "white" Dobermans

    Oct. 1995-DPCA adopted an official policy regarding the "white" Doberman as follows

    After investigation th DPCA has determined that the albinistic trait in Dobermans is deleterious to the breed and should be considered a disqualifying genetic fault as described in the DPCA's standard and code of ethics.
    We discourage our breeders from allowing this trait to spread and recommend the following: White specimen, the parents of whites, and the litter mates of whites SHOULD NOT BE BRED. All of these dogs should be spayed/ neutered and given limited or no registration.

    ALBINOS ARE NOT ELGIBLE TO BE SHOWN IN AKC CONFORMATION SHOWS, THEREFORE NO AKC CHAMPIONS ARE "WHITE"

    A "white" or albinistic Doberman has a genetic fault (a mutation in the C allele) that masks th epression of our four normal colors. It is a recessive gene which greatly reduces the number of pigment granules (melanocytes) in hair, skin, and eyes. This tyrosinase gene mutation leads to the production of a tyrosinase enzyme that has a low range of activity. This gives the apperance of a light cream base coat with dead white markings. They always have translucent blue eyes with pink noses, eye rims, and foot pads. They are TYROSINASE POSITIVE ALBINOS.

    Genetics and examining vets have determined that these dogs suffer from a deleterious from of partial (type 2) albinism. The greatly reduced pigment is skin and eyes cause marked photosensitivity (squint or shut eyes in sunlight) and increased risk of solar skin damage including cancer. PHOTOSENSITIVITY IS A HANDICAP FOR A WORKING BREED.

    The AKC is registering dogs displaying a trait never previously described in our breed's history as pure bred. Since the recognition of Dobermans as a distinct breed, our breed standard has always sought to eliminate even a small spot of white on the chest.

    The origional purpose of the breed was that of a working sentry dog to accompany their masters on their rounds at night. White is readily seen, thereby destroying the element of surprise and impairing the dog's ability to do it's work.

    Allowing the albinistic trait to spread is a serious threat to the genetic integrity of the entire Doberman breed.

    Do not let the promotors of "white" Dobermans fool you. Our breed is not improved by this practice. Ethical breeders do not intentionally breed for disqualifying faults.

    The DPCA and AKC has tracked the registrations and breeders of white Dobermans and they do maintain a list of dogs who are and do carry the albinistic gene and breeders/ owners of dogs who are white and carry the gene if you see or recieve a registration for a Doberman with the starting letters WZ that dog carries the gene

    DPCA has a lot of information on the prevention of this "parasite" gene and if you would like more information or would like a list of the dogs or breeders/ owners of these dogs please visit their website

    http://members.aol.com/spcarep1/pec.htm

    PLEASE DON'T SUPPORT THESE PEOPLE OR DOGS
     
  10. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Good info Wildwings. I've seen some of that. It's terrible that some people are breeding these. I remember watching out for that Z in the pedigrees when looking for my Dobe. LOL.

    Stirder,

    The blues are simply dilutes of blacks, fawn/Isabella, dilutes of reds. White is no good...shouldn't be bred. But Isabella or fawn (one in the same) is not anything to do with white.
     
  11. wildwings811

    wildwings811 a.k.a: agilitydobemom

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    My dog Rocky is out of a blue ***** and his sire is a producer of all four recognized AKC colors Rocky is also the litter mate of reds, blues, and fawns (isabellas) there were two blue pups one red one fawn and four black pups in his litter (weird huh?) he has no WZ in the front of his registration papers so he is not a carrier of the white gene and he would be if the fawn (isabella) statement that was made earlier in this thread was true
     
  12. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Well, I wouldn't even bother arguing whether that statement is true or not. Of course it's not. There's not point to arguing something that is fact, only when something is a matter of opinion, is it worth discussing or arguing. Facts can be proven. And then that's the end of the argument. LOL
     
  13. Ratboy

    Ratboy New Member

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    It's not an albino, it would have pink eyes and be really white, not faded out like the dog above. It's an extreme version of what my dog Molly has, "faded black" syndrome. My dog is grey and white, with greenish eyes. She has major allergy problems, like a lot of them do.

    I saw a white doberman at the vet's about 20 years ago, it seemed healthy and lived to 13 or so, not too bad. A friend's mom had a white Boxer for years, it was a great dog. Nothing wrong with it at all.
     
  14. wildwings811

    wildwings811 a.k.a: agilitydobemom

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    The facts have been stated

    They are photo-sensitive, hyperactive fear biters, who are prone to solar skin damage

    A "white" or albanistic Doberman has a genetic fault that masks the epression of the four normal colors. It is a recessive gene which greatly reduces the number of pigment granules in the hair, skin, and eyes. This tyrosinase gene mutation leads to the production of a tyrosinase enzyme that has a low range of activity. This gives the appreance of a light cream base coat with dead white markings. They always have translucent blue eyes with pink noses, eye rims, and foot pads. This is called TYROSINASE POSITIVE ALBINOS.

    THEY ARE ALBINOS AND THEY ARE A THREAT TO THE BREED THEY ARE NOT HEALTHY AND SHOULD NOT BE BRED FOR PURPOSLY

    For more info on albanism

    http://www.cbc.umn.edu/iac/facts.htm
     
  15. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Yes, and not only do they have health problems directly due to the albinism, but way back when...some breeder or breeders (irreputable ones, of course) bred dogs which happened to have a high incidence of other genetic health problems because of course, they don't give a rip about doing the proper genetic screening before breeding. So, there is a much, much higher incidence of all the same crap that Dobes have a tendency toward anyhow. They also bred dogs with very, very poor temperaments and it just went from there. These dogs should not be perpetuated.
     
  16. Manchesters

    Manchesters Guest

    Sadly........

    One of the dogs in Sheba's background was a Ch. Demetrius daughter, bred and owned by Barbara Morrison. The name was Singenwald's something or other. George and Barbara were heartbroken when they found out their dog appeared in this despicible pedigree. (I have my spell check still off, so forgive any ratty spellings!)
     

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