Which one to go with?!? (breeder)

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by Michiyo-Fir, Oct 19, 2011.

  1. Michiyo-Fir

    Michiyo-Fir New Member

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    I'm so confused right now. So as many of you know I've been looking for BC breeders for a while with mixed results. From no puppies to pet homes, to can't sell you a dog if you want to do flyball to need previous breed experience.

    I've finally found 2 breeders that seem like possible choices.

    1. Somewhat local (5ish hour drive), has a few dogs that she breeds 1-2 times every few years. She doesn't have very many dogs though and most of her breedings including an outside stud, or it's her stud being bred to someone else's bitch. I like her breeding philosophy, she seems honest about her dogs. She says some are a little sound sensitive as in if there's a thunderstorm, 2 of them will whine and pace in their crates. Does all the health tests I like. I found her through another person in the area that has her dogs and highly highly recommends her (I'll call this person B). However, person B says she's familiar with most of the other breeders I've talked to as well and she doesn't recommend almost all of them. She says she wouldn't own their lines, they don't health test and breed too much (they do health test but I don't know how much they breed). Some of their dogs' lines she wouldn't touch, etc. She is trying pretty hard to steer me towards this breeder. I will probably meet her and her dogs in the future to see if I like them. Person B co-owns one of this breeder's breeding dogs and most of her dogs are from this breeder's lines.

    Color is one of the lowest priorities on my list, but this breeder doesn't have any dogs of the color I like (merle). I guess it's not a big deal if she produces spectacular dogs, stable dog with good off switch by far over-rides color but I like to have the option.

    Breeder 1 lives on a small farm and all her breeding dogs are working dogs as well as open level trial winners. She doesn't seem to be as well known in the herding community. It could be because she's not in the bestest of health and doesn't travel as far as frequently.


    2. Breeder 2 is far away. In the US, and on the other side (I'm on the west coast of Canada, she's on the east coast). I may be able to meet her, but maybe not. Pup will have to be shipped probably. None of her dogs are sound sensitive she said because she lives close to a shooting range and trains right beside the range. She does the exact same health tests as breeder 1. She also works her dogs on her farm and attends a lot of trials on the east coast. Her name is pretty well known within the herding community. She seems to have lots of good references in the BC community. I think her lines are a bit more well established and I know one person with one of her dogs that he loves. She has one or two trialing merles (I forget how many because she doesn't have a website) all at open level so I would have the option to pick merle if I wanted to.


    Is there a better choice here??

    PM me if you want to know the specific names of the breeders.

    I just asked them about contracts today so certain things on the contract might sway me in one direction but for now from all the info I have I'm really stuck...

    I want to minimize sound sensitivity...but going to a closer breeder is easier to meet their dogs....

    Any suggestions?


    PS. This is for far in the future though, like 3 years or so. I just want to start planning and meeting the breeders/dogs early.
     
  2. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    I'd say in three years you can meet a lot more breeders and dogs. I personally don't leave much room for sound sensitivity, that is not "sound" temperament in my book. If i'm searching that hard and looking for a quality dog, it is going to have a good temperament all the way around.

    It may be easier to see some of the dogs, and maybe you find one you're convinced will be of the temp you would like. But just because it's easier to go see them, doesn't mean they'll be easier to live with over the next decade and a half. Buying a dog is the easy and cheapest part, it's the next 15 years that get you. Might as well start out ahead. That's my opinion.
     
  3. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    Personally, I'd go with breeder #2. Sounds like she has good pet-type dogs, and the fact that she does herding with them is a major plus to me.... a BC who can't herd is, IMO, not a BC. I also would try very hard to avoid buying a dog from a breeder without meeting the dogs and breeder first. I had to fly to my breeder to pick up Keegan.... it was very expensive but well worth it, IMO. I just saved up for it, and considered it part of the cost of buying a puppy.

    Sound sensitivity doesn't bother me a whole lot, it doesn't sound like her dogs are terribly storm phobic or anything. Apparently Keegan's dam is also a little sound sensitive, and indeed, he was too when he was younger. I just made a point of taking him out in public as well as working at home to desensitize him to sounds, being especially mindful of it during his fear periods, and he's perfectly fine now.
     
  4. Zoom

    Zoom Twin 2.0

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    I think breeder 2 sounds like a better start. Sound sensitivity as an emerging trait in your lines isn't really a good thing. I know there are dogs out there that are going to turn out SS regardless, but it's better to start with the soundest lines.
     
  5. Michiyo-Fir

    Michiyo-Fir New Member

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    Believe me I've already met a lot of people. It's just the way that politics work in the breed. It's hard for a first time BC owner to get into the breed.

    I'm not exaggerating when I say I've contacted probably more than 30 breeders and only 3 or 4 said they would have dogs suitable for my situation... out of those 3 or 4 only 1 is within the province so it's kind of hard for me to meet a lot of breeders.

    The herding trials in my area are all 2-3 hour's drive away at least but more commonly 4-6 and since I don't have a car, it's really difficult to go and attend any.

    Also with regards to sound sensitivity, I don't mean to say all her dogs are sound sensitive or it's a part of her lines but out of the 6 or so dogs she has, 2 she did admit were slightly sound sensitive. Out of the 2, only one was bred by her. If I go with breeder 1, I'd probably avoid these 2 dogs. Sound sensitivity is really really prominent in the breed and I think most lines will have it to some degree. I can't say whether or not it's a product of her lines. The only reason breeder 2 doesn't have any sensitive dogs is probably because of the exposure they get since the day they are born. I don't even know if it's avoidable to get a completely non-sound sensitive dog to be honest. Although I will try to avoid it as much as possible...
     
  6. Michiyo-Fir

    Michiyo-Fir New Member

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    Both breeders produce excellent herding dogs and I've seen videos of their dogs working and most of their dogs all go to herding/working homes. I wouldn't say breeder 2 produces better pet dogs because she only breeds for new working dogs to sell to others or keep for herself to work so she's not really breeding with the pet market in mind. She actually said she prefers all her dogs to go into herding homes but because in the current day and time there aren't as many farmers or people that trial their dogs in herding. She ends up having no choice but to place some dogs in sport homes.

    I will try to meet her at least once before I get a pup but like I said it may or may not be possible. The area she lives in doesn't even have a direct flight airport to where I live so it's going to be a pretty big investment. And the airport is a few hours drive away from her house. I will try my best though.

    Breeder 1 does place dogs in pet and sport homes as well as working homes. There doesn't seem to be as many people interested in herding in my area as some other areas in the states it feels like.
     
  7. PitBullLove

    PitBullLove Member

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    We're just alike :D I always start thinking 3-4 years ahead, lol.

    I wouldn't rule out #1 YET... If she's close by, why not meet her and maybe even work with her and her dogs for a while before making any big decisions? I do agree though, if you are doing this much research and talking to this many breeders so you can have it all sorted out in a few years, shouldn't you get EXACTLY what you are looking for? I sure wouldn't settle for anything less. Attend every trial and show in your state and in states close by and ask about dogs you like, ask to work with breeders and get to know their dogs, their practices, and their bloodlines! That will help you become familiar with the other people in the BC world, too. Also, I wouldn't fly that far unless you REALLY like the breeder and get to know her and her dogs over the phone first and any other ways possible. (There is one breeder I would consider flying across the state for after years and years of research, and that's because I personally know her bloodlines, people who own her dogs, and because she is a great woman with great dogs and great ethics, and that's because she does NOT ship her puppies and the bloodlines I like aren't around much anymore).
     
  8. Lizmo

    Lizmo Water Junkie

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    That's alot of ifs, but on paper breeder #2 sounds better.

    I am interested in who the breeder is on the east coast. Trying to think of who has merles at the Open level trialing right now. Mind PMing the name?
     
  9. Michiyo-Fir

    Michiyo-Fir New Member

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  10. Michiyo-Fir

    Michiyo-Fir New Member

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    The problem is I don't think one can have everything. For example quality working breeders that have any merle almost don't exist. I believe there are only about 4 in all of Canada and the USA. A few in the UK but I think that's a little too far and difficult to contact.

    In the end I at least find myself always settling for something else. Different color, different size, perhaps even different sex. It's just so rare to produce a pup that's exactly the color, size, sex and temperament that I want.
     
  11. Lizmo

    Lizmo Water Junkie

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    I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but don't worry about color or smooth or rough coat. It's really so not worth it.

    When I first started searching for puppy-parents, I was sure I wanted prick ears, rough coat, and DEFINITELY not tri-color! And smooth coat? Not a chance! Over the years, one of my favorite dogs has turned out to be a tri smooth coat! :p And when they told me Blaze would probably be a smooth coat, I wasn't too pleased. But then they showed me in person one of their dogs that was a smooth coat and I fell in love! And over the years, Blaze being a smooth coat is probably one of the best things that I never hoped for in terms of wash 'n wear.
     
  12. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    Having the breeder close enough to meet the dogs ahead of time would be a big plus for me (provided the meeting went well). Thunderstorm sensitivity isn't necessarily the same as sound sensitivity and I don't know how inheritable it is. That breeder #2's dogs aren't sound sensitive to gunfire but are raised and trained near a gun range is sort of a moot point...they are being gradually conditioned from day one to accept gunfire as a normal noise.

    I guess what I'm saying is I would need to know more and preferably meet the dogs. If you really are that set on merle and want a dog from active herding trial lines, your choices are going to be pretty limited though so the east coast breeder may be your best bet.
     
  13. Michiyo-Fir

    Michiyo-Fir New Member

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    Breeder 2's dogs are not sound sensitive in general as far as she said, not only to gunfire.

    Breeder 1's dogs (2 of them) are sensitive to sharp sounds on TV too like things exploding or weird sounds (sirens) and that's what really worries me.

    I guess I will see if I can try to meet breeder 1 and at least see her dogs before completely getting her off my list. She's not that close though at 5 hours away.

    I think the more I think about it, the more I believe I like breeder 2 a little better. I know one agility person through the internet that has had 3 or 4 generations of breeder 2's dogs. A total of about 6 of them throughout the year. All of them except for 1 has lived till 15 years old and competed to around 10-12 in agility. So I know her dogs are long lived and healthy. Plus, because this handler is amazing, all her dogs have been able to get their ADCh. To me, that's a sign of a capable dog. I'm sure I can't handle at that level at all but I love to see others that could!

    I don't really care about having a merle dog and I definitely don't care about prick ears, rough coat or anything like that. I just know I want a male pup and the thing I'm the most concerned with is getting a healthy pup that has a sound temperament and a good all around house dog.

    One other thing that's bothering me about breeder 1 is that I can't seem to find anyone that knows her well except for person B that I mentioned previously. Person B does trial and seems like a reputable source of knowledge but she keeps pushing breeder 1's dogs on me. She keeps saying that breeder 1 is the one I should pick and is really steering me towards breeder 1. It's making me feel a bit iffy actually. The other thing is breeder 1 didn't even reply my email the first time. She only replied when I emailed a second time using person B's name as a reference...

    I think I'll meet breeder 1 anyways and see how it goes but I'm leaning towards breeder 2 even if I have to fly in to meet the dogs or get a pup shipped.
     
  14. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    ^now that sounds like a strong recommendation :)

    Good luck
     
  15. Lizmo

    Lizmo Water Junkie

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    That sounds like a good way to do things (I mean meeting #1, even if you may not be leaning towards her). :)
     
  16. RD

    RD Are you dead yet?

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    Mind PMing me the names of the breeders? I am just curious.

    Breeder 2 sounds better to me. A lot of border collies ARE sound sensitive to a certain extent, but if it's important to you to not have to work around that, then definitely go with a breeder whose dogs don't display those tendencies.
     
  17. PitBullLove

    PitBullLove Member

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    Yeah, go meet her first. But I didn't know you meant they were sketched out by the TV when you said they were sensitive to noise. Personally that would rule it out for me. Unless she's practically deaf and she blasts the volume. Sooo I would personally go with breeder #2. :)
     

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