Whats with all the _______doodles?

[Fran27]

Well, I would think that if someone loves dogs, seeing someone breed dogs just to make money out of them when so many dogs are killed in shelters would be a good enough proof of how unethical that breeding is.

But of course, if you really couldn't care less about those poor dogs, it's probably not a problem.

 

[Serena]

I really can't beleive you don't see the contradiction. Inherant in this statement is a disdain for mix-breeds and/or a prejudicial committment to an idea that is not based in clear science. You point to one researcher. But there is nothing like a consensis on this issue.

There is a big difference between not liking mixed breed animals and not liking people who breed them.

I have a mixed breed myself...mixes are wonderful dogs, that has never been denied or disputed...what however has been said is that breeding them is completely and totally irresponsible.

It really is the same thing, because in your statement mixed breeds are considered inferior. And frankly, the shelters are full of pitbull mixes (another issue). I don't see any labridoodles in the shelters.

Breeding mixes is considered irresponsible breeding, if that is a concept you are not yet ready to grasp you need to first spend some time understanding the ethics of responsible breeding.

It has nothing to do with a personal dislike of mixes, The majority of purebreds out there should not be bred.

Breeding is about improving the breed and making it better, with mixed breeds there are no standards or guidelines to follow, there is nothing to improve upon, it's just bringing more and more pups into an already crowded canine world for the hell out of it.

Anyone wanting a mix can find one at their shelter. There are lovely dogs there waiting for homes.

As far as there not being any Lab x Poodle crosses in the shelters, look again there are designer mutts of every type filling the shelters constantly.

Read what? I read it, there is no proof that all people who breed mixes are bad people. Just your opinion that I am supposed to accept as proof. And if I don't accept it as word of God, I am not reading.

It sounds like your looking for scientific reasoning why mixed breeders are irresponsible and disliked and you frankly are not going to get that.

Breeding mixes is unethical, science has nothing to do with ethics.

You say it's not about mixed versus purebred. Yet you also say all people who breed mixed as bad people.

It is not about mixed versus purebred and where you are drawing that conclusion from is pretty far fetched...there has not been a person on this thread that argued that all mixed breeders were bad and all purebred breeders were good...on the contrary it has been pointed out that while all breeders of mixes were irresponsible so are the majority of purebred breeders.

The difference lays in the fact that there is a such thing as a responsible purebred breeder...there is NO such thing as a responsible breeder of mixes as it stands today.

How am I supposed to understand what you are saying, if you don't?

Everyone has made it quite clear what their thoughts were, you just are not getting the answers you want.

 

[B33CPE]

Bold (and pretty prejudicial) statement. Can you back that up?

Back it up? hmmm.. well.... you see thats my opinion, its not a scientific fact, therefore there is no reason to back it up. hence the words "MY OPINION". You remind me of a crazy lawyer or something similiar lol.."can you back that up? " lol.. You seem so upset over this, Are you a DOodle breeder ? Honestly? lol

Some one made the commment earlier that the wolf is the only purebred dog, well then i think that we need to just throw out all the breed standards and just start mixing all the breeds together, because apparently its an ok thing to do, and then what will we have? hmmm... No hunting dogs, no scent hounds, no eye seeing dogs, no sled dogs, no herding dogs etc etc etc, all PURE BREEDS were made for a reason and they are still have their purpose today.

I still want someone to explain the liberal comment made earlier , soooooooo not liberal over here lol. GO republicans lol.

This thread has become amusing. I cant leave it alone.

 

[B33CPE]

The point is ... there is no consensus in the scientific community on the issue. Many will tell you mixed is good. Maybe they are wrong, maybe they are right. But the current ideology now is apparently that you should not mix. And those who do are evil incarnate. It's a mob mentality that doesn't allow for dissent. I personally find it extremely arbitrary. In the end, it doesn't matter what the current fashion is, rather hard scientific data and repeated studies by many researchers.

ROFLMAO, proof proof proof proof proof proof, dude there is no proof, we arent talking proof, we are talking about our beliefs on the issue, i hate it when people have to have proof for everthing, very irritating. BTW i really like the "evil incarnate" reference lol. Explain to me why someone cant believe something that has no proof?

 

[Serena]

Bold (and pretty prejudicial) statement. Can you back that up?

What is there to back up? Again saying that breeding mixes is irresponsible is about ethics...

There is nothing "bold and prejudice" in the statement "All breeders of mixed breeds are irresponsible.." it is based on morals and ethics.

To understand this you really need to understand ethics..so lets take this off subject for a second..When someone teases/hurts/insults, ect.. another for no reason it is considered "wrong", and the person who does the teasing/hurting/insulting is considered a "bully"...

There is no "scientific evidence" these individuals are bullies but rather it is decided by a code of morals and ethics that we as a society have...Is that understandable for you?

Back to the subject, there is no scientific evidence that mixed breed breeders are irresponsible...(well that's not entirely true...there is always the subject of genetics,) but anyway they are considered irresponsible because there is a code of ethics in the canine fancy...that code of ethics is what states that breeding mixes is unethical.

 

[Melissa_W]

In my opinion, it is not that mixing is bad per se. But, there are so many homeless dogs out there, I feel that the only reason to breed a dog is to improve the breed. In the case of the lab/poodle mix, they are not even a breed... and most breeders are not trying to make it a breed either. They are selling F1 crosses, trying to make a quick buck. If I saw a lab/poodle breeder selling anything besides an F1 cross I would consider changing my tune. In order to make the lab/poodle mix a breed, there would have to be a concerted effort to selectivly breed dogs over huge numbers of generations. And I just don't see that going on. The lab/poodle F1 crosses sold for $1000 or more by BYBs are they exact same quality as any lab/poodle mix in a shelter. It is a crap shoot every time. So why not get one from the shelter?

 

[Mordy]

Budgets Dad,

I have some questions and comments for you, as I'm not quite sure what exactly you are expecting from buying some mixed breed dog.

Let's agree on the premise that a responsible, ethical breeder has the goal of producing healthy, structurally sound, temperamentally stable dogs.

First of all, if you want a Labradoodle so badly, of course you'd buy from a breeder who is actually working on developing the breed and not just breeding F1 crosses (Lab x Poodle) for a quick buck because they are the current fad, right? After all a breeder has a goal and he won't get any closer to it just breeding the same dogs over and over again.

You'd pick a breeder who doesn't always happen to have puppies available all year long and just willy-nilly sells them to anyone who has enough cash. This person will plan their breeding in great detail, choosing a stud dog that complements the traits of the bitch instead of just breeding two animals because they are "cute" or "nice". They will have a waiting list for their puppies and will interview you in great detail about what kind of home you will be offering. I'd expect nothing less from a responsible, ethical breeder of purebred dogs, so it applies to doodles as well.

Next, you wouldn't buy from a breeder who doesn't do the appropriate health testing for all of their breeding stock. Again, conscientious breeders do this for their purebred dogs, so I'd expect the same of a "good" breeder of mixed breeds. Since more than one breed is involved, it would be wise to test for problems that can occur in both poodles and labs, so you'd want to see original documentation for testing for hip and elbow dysplasia, progressive retinal atrophy, cataracts, thyroid, cardiac problems, von Willebrand's Disease, sebaceous adenitis, epilepsy, etc. Some of these need to be done every year, since problems can develop at any point in life if a dog is genetically predisposed. If any such disorder is confirmed in a breeding animal, any good breeder will exclude it from his breeding program and spay/neuter it.

Are the puppies well socialized from the beginning, raised inside the family home, or do they live in a kennel until they go to their new owners? Social contact and frequent handling are critical in the early developmental stages and keeping puppies in a pen in the barn or kennel is not preparing them to be good companions later on in life.

Last but not least, since a good breeder has a goal, just what exactly is that goal? Just breeding dogs? Or are these dogs actually proven in any way? Does the breeding stock have any performance titles, be it at the very least Canine Good Citizen, or Therapy Dog, Obedience or Agility titles?

If you find a doodle breeder who holds up to these standards, which are all the same I would hold a breeder of purebred dogs to, by all means, get that doodle. ANd please do me the favor and forward me the name and if possible a website for that person so I can pass it on to other folks who just "have to have" a doodle - after all why should they be satisfied with a second rate puppy?

 

[JennSLK]

Well said mordy

 

[amymarley]

I still have my feeling on breeding more dogs, but agian, to be honest, I have read some posts from breeders here who really have a heart for it. I now believe that under certain circumstances, if a dog is needed, for working etc... than that is there right. Actually, anyone can breed in America, that is there right too. But, I was so against it because I had to pick up the mess from so many bad breeders out there, that yes, it got under my skin and I had no sympathy for any breeders. In my heart, I still believe we don't need to continue at this point in time, but again, it's America, and people are going to do what they need or want to. These new designer dogs, have me worried, because we don't know the outcome in the long run, in regards to medical issues and such. I endorse the Humane Societies and the ASPCA's, so it's kinda hard for me to embrace designer dogs or most breeding in general.

 

[gracelund]

Code of Conduct and Ethics

Registered owners of all Kennel Club Registered dogs accept the jurisdiction of The Kennel Club and undertake to abide by this general code of ethics.

Owners will properly house, feed, water and exercise all dogs under their care and arrange for appropriate veterinary attention if and when required.

Owners will not allow any of their dogs to roam at large or to cause a nuisance to neighbours or those carrying out official duties.

Owners will ensure that their dogs will wear properly tagged collars and shall be kept duly leashed or under effective control when away from home.

Owners will clean up after their dogs in public places or anywhere their dogs are exhibited.

Owners will agree without reservation that any Veterinary Surgeon performing an operation on any of their dogs which alters the natural confirmation of the animal, may report such operation to The Kennel Club.

Owners agree not to breed from a bitch in any way which is deleterious to the bitch or the breed.

Owners agree only to sell dogs where there is a reasonable expectation of a happy and healthy life and will help with the rehoming of a dog if the initial circumstances change.

Owners will supply written details of all dietary requirements and give guidance concerning responsible ownership when placing dogs in a new home.

Owners will not sell any dog to commercial dog wholesalers, retail pet dealers or directly or indirectly allow dogs to be given as a prize or donation in a competition of any kind.

Owners will not knowingly misrepresent the characteristics of the breed not falsely advertise dogs nor mislead any person regarding the quality of the dog.

Owners will ensure that all relevant Kennel Club documents are provided to the new owner when selling or transferring dog including a copy of this code.

 

[gracelund]

If two breeders breed two supposedly dangerous dogs to create an even more dangerous dog they would be criticized for irresponsible breeding but because they are breeding supposedly good temperament cute dogs its ok. I just don’t get it

 

[amymarley]

Code of Conduct and Ethics

Registered owners of all Kennel Club Registered dogs accept the jurisdiction of The Kennel Club and undertake to abide by this general code of ethics.

Owners will properly house, feed, water and exercise all dogs under their care and arrange for appropriate veterinary attention if and when required.

Owners will not allow any of their dogs to roam at large or to cause a nuisance to neighbours or those carrying out official duties.

Owners will ensure that their dogs will wear properly tagged collars and shall be kept duly leashed or under effective control when away from home.

Owners will clean up after their dogs in public places or anywhere their dogs are exhibited.

Owners will agree without reservation that any Veterinary Surgeon performing an operation on any of their dogs which alters the natural confirmation of the animal, may report such operation to The Kennel Club.

Owners agree not to breed from a bitch in any way which is deleterious to the bitch or the breed.

Owners agree only to sell dogs where there is a reasonable expectation of a happy and healthy life and will help with the rehoming of a dog if the initial circumstances change.

Owners will supply written details of all dietary requirements and give guidance concerning responsible ownership when placing dogs in a new home.

Owners will not sell any dog to commercial dog wholesalers, retail pet dealers or directly or indirectly allow dogs to be given as a prize or donation in a competition of any kind.

Owners will not knowingly misrepresent the characteristics of the breed not falsely advertise dogs nor mislead any person regarding the quality of the dog.

Owners will ensure that all relevant Kennel Club documents are provided to the new owner when selling or transferring dog including a copy of this code.

That is all good and well for the "good breeder" but I know so many bad ones, it makes my heart hurt. Then again, no really "great" breeders are going to take their time and post here... so it's still a sad situation.
Amy

 

[JennSLK]

Too bad it't not Law

 

[BudgetsDad]

What is there to back up? Again saying that breeding mixes is irresponsible is about ethics...

There is nothing "bold and prejudice" in the statement "All breeders of mixed breeds are irresponsible.." it is based on morals and ethics.

To understand this you really need to understand ethics..so lets take this off subject for a second..When someone teases/hurts/insults, ect.. another for no reason it is considered "wrong", and the person who does the teasing/hurting/insulting is considered a "bully"...

There is no "scientific evidence" these individuals are bullies but rather it is decided by a code of morals and ethics that we as a society have...Is that understandable for you?

Back to the subject, there is no scientific evidence that mixed breed breeders are irresponsible...(well that's not entirely true...there is always the subject of genetics,) but anyway they are considered irresponsible because there is a code of ethics in the canine fancy...that code of ethics is what states that breeding mixes is unethical.

Again. This code of ethics is arbitrary, based only upon the current breeds. Essentially, it says change is bad.

And there is not clear verdict as far as the genetics:

60 breeds of dogs have higher rates of cataracts than the baseline of mixed-breeds: http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/do...0352.x?prevSearch=allfield:(mixed+breed+dogs)

"Mixed
breeds tend to have hybrid vigor and characteristics of
the breeds from which they originated. They have fewer
genetic diseases, but the prediction of mature size and
temperament is more difficult." -- Purdue University Animal Sciences http://scholar.google.com/url?sa=U&q=http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/AS/AS-567-W.pdf

10-12% of dalmations are deaf. And this is not a genetic defect??

Yes, I am aware there is some research that says the opposite. All that means to me, is that the issue is not clear. The obsession with purebreds has a long history, likely influenced by European racial theories that are centuries old.

 

[BudgetsDad]

ROFLMAO, proof proof proof proof proof proof, dude there is no proof, we arent talking proof, we are talking about our beliefs on the issue, i hate it when people have to have proof for everthing, very irritating. BTW i really like the "evil incarnate" reference lol. Explain to me why someone cant believe something that has no proof?

You can't be serious?? If you're going to condemn a practice/and or people at least have a basis other than your feelings. Otherwise keep an open mind.

You know.... that post explains it all.

 

[BudgetsDad]

There is a big difference between not liking mixed breed animals and not liking people who breed them.

I have a mixed breed myself...mixes are wonderful dogs, that has never been denied or disputed...what however has been said is that breeding them is completely and totally irresponsible.



Breeding mixes is considered irresponsible breeding, if that is a concept you are not yet ready to grasp you need to first spend some time understanding the ethics of responsible breeding.

It has nothing to do with a personal dislike of mixes, The majority of purebreds out there should not be bred.

Breeding is about improving the breed and making it better, with mixed breeds there are no standards or guidelines to follow, there is nothing to improve upon, it's just bringing more and more pups into an already crowded canine world for the hell out of it.

Anyone wanting a mix can find one at their shelter. There are lovely dogs there waiting for homes.

As far as there not being any Lab x Poodle crosses in the shelters, look again there are designer mutts of every type filling the shelters constantly.



It sounds like your looking for scientific reasoning why mixed breeders are irresponsible and disliked and you frankly are not going to get that.

Breeding mixes is unethical, science has nothing to do with ethics.



It is not about mixed versus purebred and where you are drawing that conclusion from is pretty far fetched...there has not been a person on this thread that argued that all mixed breeders were bad and all purebred breeders were good...on the contrary it has been pointed out that while all breeders of mixes were irresponsible so are the majority of purebred breeders.

The difference lays in the fact that there is a such thing as a responsible purebred breeder...there is NO such thing as a responsible breeder of mixes as it stands today.





Everyone has made it quite clear what their thoughts were, you just are not getting the answers you want.

Your thoughts are your thoughts. And you're welcome to them. Mine are mine, and are not based on current fad.

 

[BudgetsDad]

Budgets Dad,

I have some questions and comments for you, as I'm not quite sure what exactly you are expecting from buying some mixed breed dog.

Let's agree on the premise that a responsible, ethical breeder has the goal of producing healthy, structurally sound, temperamentally stable dogs.

First of all, if you want a Labradoodle so badly, of course you'd buy from a breeder who is actually working on developing the breed and not just breeding F1 crosses (Lab x Poodle) for a quick buck because they are the current fad, right? After all a breeder has a goal and he won't get any closer to it just breeding the same dogs over and over again.

You'd pick a breeder who doesn't always happen to have puppies available all year long and just willy-nilly sells them to anyone who has enough cash. This person will plan their breeding in great detail, choosing a stud dog that complements the traits of the bitch instead of just breeding two animals because they are "cute" or "nice". They will have a waiting list for their puppies and will interview you in great detail about what kind of home you will be offering. I'd expect nothing less from a responsible, ethical breeder of purebred dogs, so it applies to doodles as well.

Next, you wouldn't buy from a breeder who doesn't do the appropriate health testing for all of their breeding stock. Again, conscientious breeders do this for their purebred dogs, so I'd expect the same of a "good" breeder of mixed breeds. Since more than one breed is involved, it would be wise to test for problems that can occur in both poodles and labs, so you'd want to see original documentation for testing for hip and elbow dysplasia, progressive retinal atrophy, cataracts, thyroid, cardiac problems, von Willebrand's Disease, sebaceous adenitis, epilepsy, etc. Some of these need to be done every year, since problems can develop at any point in life if a dog is genetically predisposed. If any such disorder is confirmed in a breeding animal, any good breeder will exclude it from his breeding program and spay/neuter it.

Are the puppies well socialized from the beginning, raised inside the family home, or do they live in a kennel until they go to their new owners? Social contact and frequent handling are critical in the early developmental stages and keeping puppies in a pen in the barn or kennel is not preparing them to be good companions later on in life.

Last but not least, since a good breeder has a goal, just what exactly is that goal? Just breeding dogs? Or are these dogs actually proven in any way? Does the breeding stock have any performance titles, be it at the very least Canine Good Citizen, or Therapy Dog, Obedience or Agility titles?

If you find a doodle breeder who holds up to these standards, which are all the same I would hold a breeder of purebred dogs to, by all means, get that doodle. ANd please do me the favor and forward me the name and if possible a website for that person so I can pass it on to other folks who just "have to have" a doodle - after all why should they be satisfied with a second rate puppy?

Its not that I have any particular fancy for a Labradoodle or any other mixed breed. I can understand what you say and I think you have many valid points.

My point is that the current dogma is that it is a terrible thing to mix breeds. And there is not nearly enough evidence to support that statement. Frankly I suspect it is not a black and white issue and is probably more complex that a simple it's "bad" or its "good". I've posted some links that support mixing. And I am aware of research to the contrary.

As for breeders of mixes being unethical... I really couldn't say, you probably have more experience in the matter than I. But the overwhelming reply I get is that mixing is BAD... period and anyone who does it is bad by definition. I do realize that you are an exception. And when it's questioned people back-peddle to the unethical breeding issue. And when it's question further, they say, well yes I know that many purebred breeders are bad too.

To sum it up, its the fact that I'm supposed to accept it unquestioningly because the AKC says so, is what I find annonying.

 

[Fran27]

The obsession with purebreds has a long history, likely influenced by European racial theories that are centuries old.

That's a load of BS - or are you calling us nazis?

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Again. This code of ethics is arbitrary, based only upon the current breeds. Essentially, it says change is bad.

And there is not clear verdict as far as the genetics:

60 breeds of dogs have higher rates of cataracts than the baseline of mixed-breeds: http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/do...0352.x?prevSearch=allfield:(mixed+breed+dogs)

what percentage of mixed breeds do you think are regularly screened for cataracts?

This is routinely done as a matter of course in many if not most purebreds.

Just because you don't know it does not mean it's not there.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Your thoughts are your thoughts. And you're welcome to them. Mine are mine, and are not based on current fad.

Current fad being discussed here being the mixing of 2 radically different breeds for no apparent purpose other than to sell for the pet trade.