what would you do?

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by elegy, Oct 15, 2008.

  1. elegy

    elegy overdogged

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    you take your bitch to be bred. during the mating, the stud goes into respiratory arrest and is rushed to the vet where he dies.

    do you have the litter or not? what would influence your decision?

    (i don't know if a necropsy was done or not and i'm not sure how old the stud was. the bitch is just two and this is her first litter.)
     
  2. borzoimom

    borzoimom Couch Pototoe City

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    I would need to know how old the stud was, what was the cause of the death etc. ... Was this an prior existing condition etc..
     
  3. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    I would need more info and if that info was not known before hand....I would pay for the autopsy if I had to.
    Worst case, I would pet the litter.
     
  4. I would want to know the status of the cardiac testing on the male.

    I would want to know his age.

    If the bitch has already caught not much you can do about it except as adojrts says, either place the litter as pets, OR place the promising puppies somewhere that you know they will be carefully screened, esp. regarding cardiac issues.

    Other things could have caused the death of the dog such as an aneurism or a stroke. I also would have insisted on a necropsy even if I had to pay for it.

    How sad!
     
  5. elegy

    elegy overdogged

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    i've no idea about health testing on the male or anything about him other than he keeled. the female had OFA hips and elbows but was never shown or titled or proven in any way.

    i wish i had more details.

    if you opt to place them as pets, do you fully disclose what happened to the father to the prospective owner? you'd have to, right? i can't see not.
     
  6. ACooper

    ACooper Moderator

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    I would want to know before I agreed to get one of their pups, even as a pet. I think it would be the ethical thing to do IMO.
     
  7. xpaeanx

    xpaeanx Active Member

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    OMG! that's horrible!

    if she is pregnant(which I hope she isn't as that will just make the decision easy!), I think you should tell the new owners whether or not they're placed as pets.

    But, first you need to find out exactly what happened to the male.
     
  8. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    Agree with the testing .....I'd be tempted to abort the litter if there was an enlarged heart ..................
     
  9. I would absolutely think that full disclosure would be in order.

    Puppies can be auscultated at 8 weeks. I have all puppies listened to before they leave.

    If it were my bitch and puppies, I would want at least an auscultation by an ACVIM Cardiologist after 12 months, and I would require all results be disclosed on the OFA website. I expect these dogs are APBTs or AmStaffs, and anyone in that breed knows that cardiac issues are not uncommon. Breeding these dogs without cardiac testing is playing with fire, for sure.
     
  10. TheGoldenRetriever

    TheGoldenRetriever New Member

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    As others have said I would definitely pay for the necropsy to find out if a genetic problem caused the collapse.

    During the necropsy I would want special attention paid to the cardiac/pulmonary system. Was it a congenital problem that caused cardiac valvular disease, pulmonary fibrosis, or aortic stenosis?

    If any genetic problem is found then it's not OK to go ahead with the whelping. I do not think it's OK to go ahead and place all the pups as "just" pets. Potential purchasers who plan to keep an animal as "just" a pet don't deserve to be saddled with known genetic health issues anymore than potential owners who plan to work or show a dog.

    If any genetic issue is found and whomever bred these two dogs decides to go ahead anyway then yes, it's imperative to tell potential owners about what happened to the sire, even if that means having a devil of a time placing pups. For that matter, even if no genetic problem is found it's still imperative to tell potential owners about what happened ... but in that case it can be emphasized that the problem was not genetic according to information from the sire's necropsy. This way THEY can decide if they still want to buy a pup or not, and be able to decide with full information disclosed.

    Informed puppy buyers would find out anyway, just from their own questions to the breeder regarding the dam and sire. If the breeder of these two dogs were to try placing the pups without disclosing what happened, then what would they do in the face of purchaser questions ... would they decide to lie? Attempts at non-disclosure would be dishonest, not to mention potentially violating puppy "lemon laws" in some areas.
     
  11. elegy

    elegy overdogged

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    it's not a bully breed. it's a client at work's dog, which makes me a little hesitant to disclose breed. it is not a breed in which i am aware of there being any significant cardiac concerns, but i'm not hugely familiar with the breed. (if anybody really wants to know, i'll PM.)

    personally i can't fathom not having a necropsy done.

    it's too early to know if the breeding was successful. i truly hope it wasn't.
     
  12. oh, sorry to assume, elegy.

    Awful awful happening any way you look at it.
     
  13. Bahamutt99

    Bahamutt99 Dafuq?

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    Red, you'd be astonished at how many people don't even consider cardiac health before breeding their dogs. Or maybe you wouldn't be. Disappointed is probably a better word. The number of cardiac results in the OFA database is pathetic, at least in my breed.
     
  14. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    When I was breeding , only OFA and CERT was important . Now I would definately do Heart , and more if available !
     
  15. ufimych

    ufimych New Member

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    This fact tells that you choose a bad stud. Mother Nature designed all those courting fore plays, fight and chasing to prevent physically bad males or otherwise inept males from mating. The toughest survives and succeeds, becoming a proven sire of new puppies. This is how it is in the wild. With dogs, we decide, which male is the best and often do to the contrary of what Mother Nature would do. You are lucky, if that male did not sire pups. Best proven at field performance males are best sires. Best show dog means nothing, except the picture. It is a hollow idea. Selecting only for show, we select sluggish, submissive, easy to handle, indifferent dogs, some of which can do not much, just wait being crated or relax on the sofa at home. Active, capable, discriminating and demanding to free exercsing dog has less chances to win at the show. This is how we select only for the picture, the function is missing.
     
  16. wchua24

    wchua24 New Member

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    i never had an idea that this could happened...
     
  17. animalcraker

    animalcraker Member

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    Just curious if the male has sired any other litters and how they did?
     
  18. In many breeds, Bahamutt, as I am certain you know, it is pretty easy to tell who loves the breed, and who doesn't.

    Those who love the breed consider the breed entire first above anything else when planning a breeding, confining their dogs, and presenting their dogs in public. Personal goals in the breed are always second to what is best for the breed as a whole.

    Those who love the breed do ALL health testing, and disclose all the results.

    Those who love the breed do this not because of peer pressure, or because it is a breed club requirement, or because that is what responsible people do, or because someone might find out.They do it because they truly love their breed, and will do only what is best for it.

    just my opinionated opinion.....
     
  19. SpringerLover

    SpringerLover Active Member

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    I think that too many people think that doing a cardiac exam once is "enough" (not like I can talk as neither of my dogs has had a cardiac exam yet). The more I learn about it, the more I think it's a test that should be done before each breeding of a bitch and I don't know how many times in a stud? Three at the least if he's being used as public stud...?

    It's more like a CERF exam or Thyroid panel than hips/elbows/patellas/other.
     
  20. MaryAndDobes

    MaryAndDobes New Member

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    There may be good reason for that. Looking at my breed, Dobermans, where they estimate that 50% of them die of dilated cardiomyopathy, we have cardiologists that refuse to fill out/sign OFA forms because it is a test for a moment in time. Not definitive. My own dogs see Dr. Mike O'Grady at OVC regularly, he's one of the world's top canine cardiologists. He will have nothing to do with the OFA cardiac database. While my dogs receive regular cardiac check-ups, one would never find them in the OFA cardiac database.
     

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