What would you do?

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by Dizzy, Jan 28, 2014.

  1. Miakoda

    Miakoda New Member

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    I've held puppies too, and very few screamed loudly and endlessly. Most made panicked squeaking sounds, but once put down with its littermates, they got quiet again.

    We actually got to where we would hold one a certain way (special hold with the puppy rear-facing) while having a second puppy blocked in our arms (hard to explain, but puppy was safely and securely on a thick towel on the table awaiting it's turn). The puppy being docked was able to smell/touch it's litter mate, and the noise made went way down.

    I'm not going to argue what occurs (the tail is cut off at a specific vertebrae depending on breed standard), but I'm not going to say the puppies screamed for hours. It is what it is.

    I couldn't tell you the number of tail docks and dew claw removals I assisted in, but my next dog is going to be a Rottweiler and she will have a docked tail.

    As for tail docks and ear crops, they are more different than they are the same. Both are cosmetic procedures for the most part, but some working dogs have it all done for working purposes. But one is done between 2 and 4 days with no anesthesia other than a little numbing cream, and the other is a major surgery done under general anesthesia preferably between 10 weeks and 16 weeks of age.

    As for the original post, as Fran said, it's about determining what you'd give on and what you wouldn't. Personally, I'd take a docked tail over no health testing or titling or what have you.
     
  2. Southpaw

    Southpaw orange iguanas.

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    I just feel like it's such a rare thing. Not that I've specifically looked for it. There's just so many other things on my wish list, I don't think I can find someone who matches that AND doesn't dock.

    I will not be part of tail dockings at work. I was involved in it once and that was enough, I won't do it again unless I have to. Thankfully we only have one client at the moment who ever needs the service, a norwich terrier breeder and it's not like she has puppies all the time.
    They're fine afterwards and I'm pretty sure my adult dog is a-okay with her docked tail, but the idea of it and the procedure itself.... blech. I don't like seeing little itty bitty tails lying there.
     
  3. SpringerLover

    SpringerLover Active Member

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    It's not just about what goes on during the procedure either.

    Bailey has always chewed the end of her tail. When it happens, it honestly looks like some kind of shock (neuro thing) started it--and hers was done by her breeder/vet.

    Dogs use their tails for balance all the time and it's easy to see Buzz and Bailey move their tail like a dog would trying to counter balance but--not having it help, because there's not enough there.
     
  4. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    I'm not responding to you particularly, but I've seen this sentiment several times.

    I don't think it's as simple as "is a tail important/as important as health and temperament" as "I have a certain ethical concern, how important is it to me?" I think the fact that it happens to be tail docking is fairly irrelevant. It could be lots of different practices that someone might ethically object to.

    There are a few things that ethically are really deal-breakers for me, and even if a breeder otherwise 100% aligned with my thoughts and opinions I would pass on the breeder... or if necessary, the breed if I couldn't find anyone who didn't do those things.

    It's not necessarily a matter of which is "more" important as "what is important to me?" The way I see it, either something is important enough to you to absolutely not compromise on it, or it's not. And yes I understand that choices can be limited by what is available. For any of us, those limited choices may end up illustrating that maybe we are more willing to compromise on something than we thought when it was all hypothetical, and that's ok. But it's ok for it to be important enough NOT to compromise on, too.
     
  5. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    There is evidence that early pain experiences (especially when pain is un- or under-managed, which I'd guess most dockings are) can sensitize an individual to pain later in life locally or generally - that is, can essentially lower their adult pain threshold. Also may predispose an individual to chronic pain syndromes. Obviously there are individual differences but it is what it is. (Not trying to start a thing about docking but just to say, your experience isn't necessarily a weird outlier.)
     
  6. Paige

    Paige Let it be

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    Ethics would never let me purchase a dog with a docked tail or cropped ears from a breeder. I feel so strongly against it that no amount of otherwise perfection would get me to buy a dog who had it done for cosmetic reasons.

    When push comes to shove I guess the real thing that matters is are you ok supporting someone docking their dogs? If it is something you can bend for that is your choice to make.
     
  7. teacuptiger

    teacuptiger floor dancer

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    If I was in your situation (I can sort of understand- I am a must-have-front-dews kind of person), I would be equally on the fence. Dews may not seem as big a deal as a tail, but they are to me... Do I WANT a dog without dews? No. Most definately not. Honestly, if Roxie did not have dew claws, I may not have adopted her.

    So, if I was in your situation, faced with a breeder that always removes dew claws... I would probably talk to the breeder about leaving them on, or other options. Of course, they would have to really know me and really know their dogs for this to most likely work out, and that's not always certain. Do you have this kind of relationship with this breeder?

    If not, I honestly would keep looking for another breeder. If we both feel equally (you about tails and me about dew claws), then this is my best suggestion. There may never be two of the same snowflakes (breeders in this instance), but there are similar ones.

    This is a 1000x harder with an uncommon breed, but I believe that patience can pay off. As has also been suggested, you can look for people who have her dogs, and see if they leave tails. That's a very good option as well.

    Whatever you decide, I wish you luck! :)
     
  8. SpringerLover

    SpringerLover Active Member

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    Yeah, I've discussed it with a few different vets and the general consensus is that something obviously changed when her tail was docked. The way she chews it, reminds me of when I get tingly limbs. Thankfully, it's never been chewed to the point of injury.

    We used to work with a Rottweiler breeder who docked tails (super duper short, she requested Pem-like tails... okay?) but left dewclaws?! Very odd to me.
     
  9. yv0nne

    yv0nne Vizsla mom

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    Import one? There are some great GSP breeders around here ..all very small scale but with fabulous dual purpose dogs& none of them have docked tails because docking is illegal here aha
     
  10. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    I'm not against the ideal of importing at all.

    Link me up!

    Here it's illegal unless you can provide evidence you use them for working (gun licence and written evidence from farmer or land owner you work the dog on). Even then you have to find a vet who will csrry out the procedure.

    Gsp are still very much a working bred dog, and although pet owners are out there and there's quite a community of them, a huge percentage still come from working dogs. Pet owners tend to be outdoorsy types who have links to those kinds of hobbies.. Not all of course. Horsey people tend to own gsp for some reason lol

    Working breeders have a totally different outlook than pet or dual purpose breeders. They all dock, they all work, they hate that people make dogs into pets and usually have rigid thinking on the dogs purpose! As you'd expect. That is a generalisation of course.

    There are some pet owner/breeders. Not interested, thanks.

    Then you have show and dual purpose. And there's probably more dual purpose than only show. Gsp people are very passionate about maintaining the dual purpose nature of the breed and not developing separate lines. So you will find a lot of the show lot are the working lot, who've expanded their horizons and now show and are passionate about their dogs doing well on both fronts. There are a handful of field and show champions, not tons though.

    And they all dock, because the dog is traditionally docked and worked. Many of the uk show champions won't be at crufts as they are docked! You can't show a docked dog at crufts. You can show a docked dog in shows that don't charge the public an entry fee (weird).

    There's not many breeders at all that I've found that encompass EVERYTHING I like.

    I like modern thinking around training, development, nutrition, husbandry, etc etc etc.

    And breeders in the UK are just not up to speed on that yet, in any breed! Especially not gundog breeds lol! Seems many more us breeders are completely up to date with modern developments... I don't know.

    There are fab breeders, I'm very very happy with Fred's breeders!! They are one of the top (show) gsp kennels and have offered tons of advice, support etc.

    I just want to branch out into more dual purpose type dogs, and expand my horizons and perhaps find a breeder who would do things how I would do them if I was a breeder......

    Maybe I should breed my own. lol. Maybe that's the only way to get what you want, the way you want it :D
     
  11. mrose_s

    mrose_s BusterLove

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    I would get the dog.
    A. Because docking isn't a big deal to me.
    B. Everything else is perfect and like you said, there arn't other breeders doing what this one is.
    C. They are working dogs, therefore I would consider this a working dock. A dock for purpose, not aesthetics. Which to me, is the entire reason the procedure exists and as good a reason as any.
    D. You buying or not buying a pup is not going to change this breeders beliefs on docking their working dogs. To me, this is not the same as not supporting a dodgy BYB not health testing or proving their dogs, this is a blip.

    But like I said, my beliefs on docking have radically changed in the last few years. So this, personally isn't a big deal for me. To each their own.
     
  12. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Honestly, Dizzy, I have yet to find that magical breeder that does everything 100% and has the ideal dogs for me. There's a few that I like very much but we always differ on something.

    I don't know that it's realistic to hold out for perfection in a breeder. In a lot of ways I think those online checklists of a 'good breeder' are very limiting.

    I'm not saying you should compromise on docking but in my experience you will probably have to compromise on something. Especially with rare breeds- you don't have many options and the likelihood that you'll find perfection in a breeder in that small of a pool is very slim. I really do think the only way to find a perfect breeder is to breed the dogs yourself.
     
  13. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    Lots of great input :)

    Will deffo keep enquiring with different people... Who knows there may be someone out there, it's not like I've met and seen every single breeder!

    And I AM willing to go abroad. Not difficult being in the uk.

    And this is so far off.... Well as long as I can convince myself it's not the right timing :D and is a terrible idea.
     
  14. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    IDK why it would have to be one or the other.

    Personally ear cropping bothers me far more than tails. I much prefer tails but I could get over a docked dog. Right now the only cropped breed I'm interested in is Amstaffs. I don't like the look, and I personally have ethical issues with cropping. I am the one buying the dog, and my breeder of choice wouldn't allow me to leave ears on then I would look for another breeder. If it was impossible for me to find a breeder who would work with me on the issue, I would look for a different breed. I'm not going to put my puppy through a purely cosmetic surgery I don't like to achieve a physical look I find unattractive anyway.
     
  15. Miakoda

    Miakoda New Member

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    I don't think she is saying that it has to be. She's just stating her opinion, much like everyone else did.

    Me, I stated my opinion, but I'd never ask Dizzy to go against her own code of ethics to get a puppy. She may make the hard choice to "overlook" the docking, or she may stick to her guns. I think whichever decision she makes will be the right one for her, and I think it's great that people have such high standards for what they want to see from breeders and in the dogs themselves. :)

    For me, docking is a non-issue. If I desperately wanted to a Rottie from a certain breeder, and that breeder did not dock tails, then I'd have a Rottie with a tail. In my case, the breeder I chose to go with does dock tails, so my pup will have a docked tail.

    As far as ASTs go, I have numerous friends who own and show ASTs and do not crop ears. But be forewarned that very few judges will place a dog with natural ears, even if all the other dogs look like extreme American Bullies. I think it's a load of bullpoop, but that's a reason the ahold show ring gets a "Meh" from me.

    And Dizzy, there's someone in my neighborhood with a GSP with a tail. He looks just like your Fred! I'm going to start bringing my phone with me on all walks in case I see them out again, and maybe he'll let me take a picture of him. The owner said he's an excellent hunting dog, and he's making the switch from Labs to GSPs. :)
     
  16. Kyllobernese

    Kyllobernese Member

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    Kris is only the second dog I have owned with a docked tail, the other one was also a Dobe. I have seen Dobermans with their tails and really did not like the look of them. What I was surprised at was that they did not remove her front dew claws which I was really pleased with as I see no reason for them to be taken off. I knew before I ever got Kris, that I would not be cropping her ears.
     

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