What is it all about?

[Suzzie]

well of course not. I didn't misunderstand the thread. The thread is ABOUT why you breed, if not for titles, etc. And I posted what's important to me if I were breeding dogs. Their outward physical appearance is, to me, the LAST thing on the list of important things you should breed for in a dog. I'd rather have a dog too large for the standard but with a great disposition than a picture-perfect pooch that won ribbon after ribbon but had a stinky attitude. Looks are always second for me.

The woman I bought Roo from didn't show her dogs. She bred good quality dogs that had sweet temperaments, great health and could go out and do what they were meant to. And I'd buy from her again. In fact, I plan on it. They were AKC registered but that means little anyway. Is she a horrible person for not filling the world with show dogs? I think not.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

ANYONE breeding purebred dogs should be concerned with every facet of producing the best dogs possible. That includes appearance as dictated by the breed standard for most breeds.

 

[noludoru]

nvr mind.

 

[HoundedByHounds]

I doubt the show world is filling the world with dogs, Suzzie...I think you might mean the BYB, person who doesn't keep Bessie Sue up when she's in season or spay her...the Mills, etc.

By the decree of JQP show people are not allowed to breed often, own too many dogs, or sell too many, or they lose their standing as a reputable breeder. Kinda a catch-22..of which there are many, when you breed dogs.

 

[Bahamutt99]

Type is important, too. A dog can walk in one end of the building while you're sitting at the other end, and you should be able to go "that's a ______, no doubt about it."

 

[mom2dogs]

The woman I bought Roo from didn't show her dogs. She bred good quality dogs that had sweet temperaments, great health and could go out and do what they were meant to. And I'd buy from her again. In fact, I plan on it. They were AKC registered but that means little anyway. Is she a horrible person for not filling the world with show dogs? I think not.

So instead of showing she is a competitor in herding?
Thought this article would interest someone, did for me:
http://www.digbysystems.com/bluepanda/herding.htm

A dog that conforms well to the standard is a show dog instantly? Umm, no.

Anyone who doesn't attempt to match their dogs to the standard (except a few breeds that actually do work and prove themselves) and use excuses such as "we focus on health and temperament" are BYBs to me. Plain and simple. Those are the ones that are destroying my breed and selling dogs that have heads like Scotties and are tall like Lakies - not what a WHWT is. Oh, but they make great family pets

 

[elegy]

unless you get out there and earn it and PROVE it, then that's all you have - shoulda coulda woulda. You don't get to breed on those.

I agree. Strongly. "He could be shown if I wanted to", etc doesn't fly with me. Any registered dog "could" be shown. That doesn't mean they'd measure up. I don't care how many champions are behind your dog, unless YOUR dog is out there bringing home those titles, those other titles don't mean that much. And I'm sorry, but "good temperament" and CGCs and being a therapy dog- well, my shelter dogs can do that. It doesn't make them good breeding stock.

Breeding isn't supposed to be cheap, and it isn't supposed to be easy. A big chunk of that is the time, effort, and money it takes to prove your dog's worth in front of a judge, whether that be a conformation judge or a schutzhund judge, or whatever.

I'll give actual working dogs a pass on a lot of stuff (though these dogs are dogs who ARE working, not who COULD work) but that's about it.

 

[drmom777]

So say you have a breed of dog where the breed standard keeps veering away from what you think it should be. And further, the style is even more extreme than the breed standard. And this is what is placing in the show ring.But you have a line of dogs you inherited from your relative that exeplify what you think the breed ought to be. Then is it OK to breed your line, even if it can't place in the show ring, in order to preserve what your breed SHOULD be like?

 

[Dizzy]

ANYONE breeding purebred dogs should be concerned with every facet of producing the best dogs possible. That includes appearance as dictated by the breed standard for most breeds.

Who WRITES these breed standards?

Breeding dogs that cannot perform what they were originally bred for by the people who "invented" them is stupid.

Most show dogs look NOTHING like their working counterparts.

So what IS their purpose?

Nothing apart from satisfying human folly.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Who WRITES these breed standards?

I am not sure about the UK, but in the US, the National Club for each breed writes the breed standard.

Breed standards may NOT be changed on a whim. Changes to breed standards must not only be approved by the American Kennel Club, they must then be sent to the membership of the club, and they must pass by a 2/3s majority of the vote.

Breeding dogs that cannot perform what they were originally bred for by the people who "invented" them is stupid.

Dizzy, many breeds cannot LEGALLY perform what they were originally bred for. As an example, bull baiting and dog fighting is illegal, so Bulldogs or APBTs could never perform the function for which they are bred.

Many of the drover breeds such as Rottweilers or OES may only rarely be able to perform their original functions, as no one drives large herds of stock to market using dogs any more.

How many people have access to stock to work who have herding breeds? At least we do have herding competitions that one can compete it, but not all people who have herding breeds have access to this either.

In today's anti dog environment, dogs who were bred for guard and protection work are often not worked in these venues, since having dogs trained to bite is illegal in many areas.

Most show dogs look NOTHING like their working counterparts.

This is what happens when breeders do not INSIST on dogs who can do it all.

If one stops paying attention to selecting dogs for correct breed type, and selects only for working ability, then those dogs will begin to diverge from what is generally accepted as good breed type. Same with working abilities. If dogs are not trained, tested, worked, and/or competed with, you will lose the working ability in a percentage of the resulting progeny.

It is truly a USE IT OR LOSE IT prospect with breeding dogs.

So what IS their purpose?

Nothing apart from satisfying human folly.

Maybe. If not for that "human folly", MANY breeds would have disappeared when they were no longer needed to serve their original purpose.

 

[Dekka]

I agree a bit with Dizzy. Take tollers. Tollers used to be able to have white on their necks. Then for some reason the show breeders (those that make up the club) decided it was not allowed and so changed the standard. Having a spot of white on the neck (which is not directly inheritable anyway) does not affect a toller's abiltiy to work, health or temperament. So why make a lot of really nice dogs ineligible for the show ring. No toller breeder I have talked to has a reason other than politics.

If you read breed standards and then see what is placing in the ring.. often they are not the same.

Also I think in many breeds its not that breeders don't insure that the dogs can do it all. The winning conf dogs CAN'T do the job they are bred for, or it would be very difficult to do so. Look at all the hair on show cockers, shelties and other 'working' dogs. The draftyness of show labs, or the back end of show GHD. You look at pics of what the breed used to look like...much less hair. But hair is pretty. You talk to people in those breeds, if you don't have an 'extreme' coat-you don't get the ribbons.

 

[doberkim]

*We* make the standard. That's where so many have it wrong - the akc doesn't make the stnadards at all, they have nothing to do with making standards. They host a website where the standards are listed - the actual standards come from the breed clubs, and as far as I know, each breed club should have its standard voted upon by the members of the club.

Even if you veer towards a working line dog - does your working line dog have a structural standard to meet? Just working doesn't make it a better dog - there is still a structure to be strived for. For instance, I own a working dog and she is still structurally a nice looking dog even though her entire pedigree hails from europe, and her parents are training and titling in schutzhund.
If a breed has split so much that a large divide has been created - that is there because WE allowed it to be there, not because the AKC did it, or any other breed club. Breeding dogs for working ability ONLY is just as deleterious in some ways, in my eyes, as breeding only for looks in any breed - because no dog can continue without all parts of him being addressed in the breeding. If you ignore health, structure, temperament, or working ability and focus only on ONE thing - eventually ,sometimes in only 1-2 generations, other things WILL be lost, and it will be very hard, very very hard, to get them back. We bred so long for dobermans that look pretty in the ring, we now have many that cannot pass the basic dobe temperament test designed purely FOR dobermans and some that do pass, have to have training to do so beforehand!

I am not dismissing those that enjoy showing - it's not for me (I have shown my puppy a handful of times, and will continue to enter her here and there - she is not too competitive in the AKC ring not because she is Euro, but because she is at the small end of the standard and is a very slow maturer, and compared to 7 month old pups who are 80 lbs and look like mini-adults, she will never take home the points!) - but we show in the dobe only venues as well, including UDC and ADA, and I do hope to get her out in the UKC shows eventually if I can find a weekend free that I can enter her! But I can absolutely stack her, and have someone experienced evaluate her structural flaws and her strengths independent of whether or not she finishes a CH (which she will likely never do - I am honest enough to admit that - first and foremost because it is not where my priority is, and I do not have the funds and time to devote to what it takes to finish a doberman in this country - which is most of the time sending them off with a handler and over 5-6 thousand dollars, MINIMUM) - and I can be happy with that. I can see what she lacks structurally (she could have a little more angulation), what her great aspects are (movement, her head), but you cannot just do that for working ability. You really need to train and work your dog to understand what it takes to do that with your dog, what it takes to get your dog to perform. Training your dog in your backyard or your living room, anyone can have a CD in their minds (rah has his OTCH there!) - but it doesn't all translate to training class, and definitely all doesn't come into the ring. Work ethics, attention, drive, etc - once you get past a CD you really have to start digging in deep with your dog and once you start showing in utility, it's not just showing up and hoping. It's not that you get out there and someone else picks who is the best dog - you actually are judged only on your own merit and whether or not you get your title is purely on your OWN performance. The same goes for schutzhund, agility, etc.

For me, I am biased and I admit that - I enjoy working my dogs, and I do it as much as possible. I find that for me, working a dog tells me more about a dog than many other things. I could have the most beautiful doberman in the world, Top 20 that year, with perfect health testing, but if it wouldn't work for me and I couldnt' figure out a way to motivate it, it had no drive, and simply wasn't a true working dog, I think I would probably have to say it wasn't a dog I would want to breed - because I really truly believe we have to strive to embrace the working aspects of the breeds meant to work.

My puppy came from parents with working titles, and if she is ever bred, she will likely be bred purely on her working titles (of course only after all her health testing is complete!). Her sire had a UDC Ch, and berlin will be shown in UDC, ADA and UKC as I said above - but whether or not she is able to finish those CH's will not be the deciding factor in if she is bred. It will be her health above all, her temperament, and her working abilities that we take into account first as well as her structure - her OVERALL package - knowing the insane drive she brings to the picture, but also how incredibly sharp she is, knowing she will have to be bred to a very stable male, same as her mother. She is her mothers daughter Though I am not sure the world will ever be ready for little evil ones...

 

[bubbatd]

I am bowing out of this ...... I can't prove my point . My dogs were standard ...when shown , placed well . My getting titles on them just wasn't my thing .

 

[Beanie]

This is what happens when breeders do not INSIST on dogs who can do it all.

And that, to me... is "what it's all about."


Auggie's relatives win in the show ring. They work the stock at his breeder's and other's - his brother went to a farm home. They win on the agility course. They win in the obedience ring. They are healthy (and health tested.) They are confident little dogs who possess correct temperament. They are stunning.
I would never, ever, EVER want or accept anything less than the total package.

I as a buyer insist on dogs who can do it all. My breeder better insist on the same thing.

Breeding dogs for working ability ONLY is just as deleterious in some ways, in my eyes, as breeding only for looks in any breed - because no dog can continue without all parts of him being addressed in the breeding.

Totally, 100%, absolutely agree.

 

[mom2dogs]

I am bowing out of this ...... I can't prove my point . My dogs were standard ...when shown , placed well . My getting titles on them just wasn't my thing .

I don't think anyone is questioning you (unless I missed a post). But what may be accepted back then is unthinkable now.. things have changed over time.

 

[adojrts]

I as a buyer insist on dogs who can do it all. My breeder better insist on the same thing.

.

:hail: Amen, just want to add combined with health testing, nothing can be it.

 

[Renee750il]

Breeding dogs for working ability ONLY is just as deleterious in some ways, in my eyes, as breeding only for looks in any breed - because no dog can continue without all parts of him being addressed in the breeding.

I have to disagree.

For a dog to be able to PROPERLY and effectively work, and by "work" I mean in real life, over the long haul, not in trials, it must be HEALTHY, SOUND and STABLE, physically, mentally and emotionally. That pretty much covers everything. Except pretty, and frankly, pretty is nice, and, well, pretty, but it's irrelevant to a real working dog.

 

[corgi_love]

RR, what in your words is your idea of bettering your breed?

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

That is sort of hard to answer, Corgi, because there is so much to it.

For me, I can't justify a breeding unless I feel the dog in question actually has something to offer the breed. I can't justify breeding mediocrity.

So if the dog passes test number one, above, then I must realistically critique the dog, both pro and con, and begin to look for a breeding partner by looking for the dog who is outstanding in the same areas, and who shares none of the cons. While looking for dogs who come as close to this criteria as possible, I also take into consideration what titles a dog has earned. I do not judge a dog strictly by titles, however, you can draw certain conclusions about a dog from the show and/or trial records.

Then I look for health testing, and the disclosure of the results.

Next, I look at who owns the dog, because this has everything to do with how breedings and progeny will be managed, or how an owner will place and manage the resultant puppies from a breeding.

And finally, one more very important piece of the puzzle as far as bettering and protecting your breed has to do with the placement of your puppies, and how you choose the homes. No matter how careful a breeder is, if a puppy falls into the wrong hands, so much work can be undone nearly instantly, and can continue for generations. So I screen homes carefully, I use an explicit and detailed sales agreement, and I keep in touch with my puppy people on a regular basis.

 

[Renee750il]

I can telll you've put a great deal of thought into your breeding philosphy, Red