What is it all about?

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by RedyreRottweilers, Jun 16, 2008.

  1. Someone said:

    So, if it is not about showing and titling and proving dogs in the Breed and obedience rings, and producing get that can and do win as well, then what IS it about?

    Anyone?
     
  2. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    That's going to depend on the breed and what you're looking for, I guess.

    My breed, I'm not looking for show or obedience or sport titles; I'm looking for dogs who do what they do on pure instinct in real working conditions with little or no training. The dogs from show lines have significantly different criteria than I'm looking for.

    The most important things for me, equally are health, temperament and instincts. It's more important that the dog be physically and mentally sound than it conform to a peculiar set of measurements and aesthetics. Certain physical characteristics are necessary - the rear quarters must be higher than the shoulders, it must be camel gaited, but those characteristics are part of what makes the breed able to do what it does. A dog that's too big is a fault for me - you lose critical agility, speed and mobility, as well as the fact that dogs that are too big tell me that someone's been breeding for size, not for the important things.

    The heart of it is that it is most important that the dog be a Fila on the inside. The outside (appearance, obviously not health) of the dog is of secondary importance.

    But my breed is a completely different set of questions than most others.
     
  3. Bahamutt99

    Bahamutt99 Dafuq?

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    Since the original purpose for my breed is illegal, to me it is about competing and winning in the breed ring and in working events. The latter being more important than the former, IMO.
     
  4. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    And that, Baha, is why it's such a multi-faceted and difficult question to answer. Different breeds; different needs ;)
     
  5. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    My answer would be a sound temperament, good health, and a good representation of the breed (both physical and temperament wise) and what it's supposed to be.

    AKA for my breed- cute sweet dogs with rather large ears.
     
  6. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    All my own dogs were in show or obedience ring at one or more time ..... Many I sold went on to Championships . Competition was not my piece of the pie ....I was known for calm , laid back family Goldens. Many bought 3rd generation . Once an owner was stopped at a park in Chicago and asked if their Golden was a Hawthorn Hill Golden . Yup !! No titles , no points ....just a big , beautiful lug pleasing his master and his kids . I admire those who do show ......but when you have 3 kids , many dogs , horses and many sports activities ....something has to give .
     
  7. Squishy22

    Squishy22 Guest

    Something I've always wondered...

    Is it considered unethical to breed untitled dogs (strictly as companions)?

    Even if they are registered, health tested, and conformationally correct?
     
  8. Well, that depends, Reggin.

    Titles don't make the dog. However, the vast majority of ethical breeders compete with their dogs in some venue. Kennel blindness can happen to ANYONE. Showing your dogs to be judged by impartial persons who are considered to be experts in your breed helps to prove to breeders, and others as well, that your dogs are what they should be whether the competition is in the Breed or the working rings.

    If someone is not competing at all, with most breeds, that would raise red flags for me. I would want to know why. I would want to know by what yardstick they are measuring their dogs. How they keep up with what is going on in their breed, etc.

    Dogs shows for me are much more than a place to show my dogs. They are a place to LEARN. A place to observe examples of my breed, to see what different dogs are producing, what the youth of the breed is looking like, what the strengths and weaknesses are of the dogs who are being exhibited.

    In addition to that, I study structure and movement of other breeds while I am at dog shows, and sit quietly at ringside. Often you can hear excellent remarks from others that help you learn more about a particular breed.

    When a dog competes successfully in the breed ring it says much more about them than just their looks. A dog has to have a certain strength of temperament to travel and show well. There are strange places, lots of other dogs, buildings with different smells, and sounds. Being confident enough to stand for exam, and show themselves with flair in the ring takes a dog who can handle these types of stresses and still shine. I am always evaluating dogs when I first start showing them. Does the dog eat well on the road? Eliminate with no trouble? Is the dog able to relax in the crate and rest? Will the dog sparkle for me in the ring when I ask? Even moreso, the obedience ring takes a dog who can perform many different exercises on command with precision with the same stressors and distractions present.

    The original comment was made as an attempt to discredit or minimize the significance of the titles I have earned on my dogs.

    To me those titles are a true tribute to my love for the dog who wears those letters in front of or behind his or her name. It is their immortality, and a tangible measure of the bond we share(d) together.

    JMO as always.

    :D
     
  9. drmom777

    drmom777 Bloody but Unbowed

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    Well, I love your Rotties, but the dog that I would most like to own would have no titles and wouldn't compete anywhere. I want a Lightfoot English Coonhound. They hunt big cats and bears. They are physically stunning and you can't help but admire an animal of such drive and courage. The breedersdon't compete with them, they developed the strain for guiding hunters into the wilderness to hunt big cats, that is how they make their living. The dogs have become legendary.

    They are actually quite inexpensive to purchase, but you can't have one unless you will use it for the purpose for which it was bred. And they breed for their own use, not for sale, so there is way more demand than supply.
     
  10. drmom, there are some breeds like you just described that are still bred for their function. This is one example where the competition "rule" really does not apply. However, there are VERY FEW BREEDS such as you describe.

    The vast majority of breeds are not used for their original purpose any longer. So breeders show to have their dogs judged on type, structure, and movement, and compete in other working venues such as Obedience, Herding, Tracking, Schutzhund, Agility, Ring Sport, and etc to 1) prove their dogs, and 2) keep the working ability intact.

    It truly is a USE IT OR LOSE IT proposition most of the time in dogs.

    :)
     
  11. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    I think titles are important (to me) If someone had a great JRT working stud who also had other titles, or was a racing champ etc etc I would be thrilled. But for my breed I am more interested in dogs who will work, than those who just look like they could.

    I personally don't put a huge value on conf showing. I watch a lot of conf ch. dogs move and think "wow that is really inefficient, pretty but not useful" I see a lot of dogs who couldn't work due to their conf even if they had the instinct. Labs come to mind as do fox terriers and GSD. Also with showing Bounce. When the bitch who kept winning was one that the owner was concidering spaying and petting out as she was too far out of standard. The whippet people all ohh'd and ahhhh'd over Bounce and said that is what they are aiming for, and then the judges over look her.

    I do like conf showing WITH other titles. Esp working type ones. If your dog is healthy, has a good temperament and working ability-being really pretty is icing on the cake.

    Personally to me its not 'about' the titles.. its the dogs. If we (as in we breeders) do it for the love of our breed we will all do our best. Which will keep variation with in the breed.
     
  12. Squishy22

    Squishy22 Guest

    Ok, that explains things a lot better. For me, I would want a breeder who is actually INVOLVED in their breed. Like you seem to be...
     
  13. noludoru

    noludoru Bored Now.

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    And that was what made me completely overlook it, Red - it was clearly meant to be a slap in the face to you. I can't fathom how there could be another purpose, since how many Rottweiler fanciers are doing a great deal more than you are? Certainly not the commenter. If they are belittling your achievements they are belittling the achievements of plenty of dogs like yours both within your breed and outside of it, and more or less saying those dogs are worthless as a whole...

    Maybe I'm not making sense in my ramblings there, but that's how I feel about it. That the comment is completely pointless and idiotic. The discussion that has stemmed from it, though, not so much. :D
     
  14. milos_mommy

    milos_mommy Active Member

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    I'm with Dekka...as far as most breeds, I'd put more value in work type competetions than conformation. I'd be much more likely to choose a border collie with herding titles than one with a perfect topline.

    Even companion dogs...If I was going to choose a breeder, I'd probably pick one whose dogs had not just conformation titles, but were therapy dogs, had obedience or agility titles, etc. Than one who had tons and tons of conformation ribbons.
     
  15. drmom777

    drmom777 Bloody but Unbowed

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    I certainly mean no offense to your dogs. I love Rotties, and yours are obviously bred with love and care for the breed in mind. I have enjoyed every bit of your sharing their lives with us. You are much appreciated here. i don't know where the comment originated, but i would put money on it stemming from jealousy, not actual belief that there is something wrong with what you do.
     
  16. Great Discussion!!

    :D
     
  17. SpringerLover

    SpringerLover Active Member

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    In my ACTS (club) agility calendar there is an amazing quote that I'm trying to remember... but can't... will have to get it tomorrow. It's amazing.

    Titles aren't everything (and I'm looking for actual hunting ability, not a WD or JH) but they do prove that the owner has initiative and desire, as well as the ability to train a dog.

    I was far more impressed watching Vad (toller) work than I am with the titles he carries. But he has those titles... and I really appreciate that as a buyer.
     
  18. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    Then RR you must not have agreed with my breeding program . I was very close to many mentors in my Golden Retriever Club and they approved with what I did . I was proud to put Cerf. OFA, CGC and TDI in the pedigrees instead of other titles . Many with show titles couldn't get TDIs. All of mine could have been in the show ring , but I chose to let them enjoy the woods and not worry about show coats . Most of them did and could do obedience , but were so layed back they lacked the " snap " .... 3 of my males would roll over on their backs during the " long stay " and go to sleep ! I admire your breeding and your showing ......it's just not for everyone .
     
  19. noludoru

    noludoru Bored Now.

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    Okay that was what I meant.. in one sentence, even. *bows head in shame and exits thread*
     
  20. Toller_08

    Toller_08 Active Member

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    While I feel showing and titling is important, I don't feel it should be the be all and end all. I'd love to breed Tollers one day, but I won't for the simple reason that I'm not a competitor and showing my dog stresses me out way too much to enjoy it. I wish it didn't, but it does, and therefore if I bred dogs without a championship, I'd be looked at as irresponsible... even if I had nice dogs structurally, who were health tested and had working ability and such. And yes, I could hire a handler, but I don't want to, as it's incredibly expensive and not as important as temperament and health to me. I feel that if you're a truly good breeder, you should know the breed standard inside and out be able to evaluate your dog structurally by yourself and shouldn't need to show. And of course, I'm sure most can. I don't feel showing in conformation really proves anything anyway. Almost any dog (in my breed anyway) can finish in the show ring, but it doesn't mean they should all be bred. Dance, for instance, with the right handler could easily finish. She could probably almost have her CD in obedience too if I trialed with her. She could probably even have a WC, just because she does have some working ability, but it's not strong enough to me. She could have all sorts of titles, actually, but I don't like her temperament Toller wise and without a proper Toller temperament, she has nothing (IMO). So, in the end, all of those fancy titles attached to her name would look fantastic, but they still don't prove that she should be bred and is an outstanding example of her breed.

    So I guess my point is that titling your dog doesn't really prove anything important dog wise, and that breeding shouldn't be based solely on those things. It proves that you're a great handler and your dog is pretty and well behaved. People who breed should do it because they love their breed and want to improve it. That should be their motive. They shouldn't have to prove themselves or their dogs, though it's nice that many do. But I do have to add, that just because I personally am not comfortable enough to show and trial my dogs, it doesn't mean I wouldn't go to shows and see what's out there in my breed and talk to different people and such.

    I'm really not anywhere near as good with words or expressing my opinion as some of you are, so I hope that made sense. And I do want to commend those that can and do title and prove their dogs. I think that's wonderful and I wish I could do it as "easily" as you do.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2008

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