What are your views on cropping and docking?

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by Julee, Feb 1, 2013.

  1. golden&hovawart

    golden&hovawart New Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    639
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 dogs & 2 cats
    Location:
    86,Fr
    Love the look of a cropped and docked breed and use to own 4 PyrSheps that were done.
    Today,cropping is not done anymore where I live and docking is becoming rarer cos you can't show them,outside of Fr.
    I love natural ears but prefer docked tails.
    MOA,on whippy tails like pointers, Dobies and Boxers.
     
  2. Red.Apricot

    Red.Apricot Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2011
    Messages:
    2,985
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Southern California
    I am not in favor of legislation getting rid of cropping and docking, but I don't really like the practices. I prefer all the parts on my dog--I like her tail, I like her ears, and she uses her dewclaws all the time. But, her dews are tightly attached and useful, so I might feel differently if she were injuring those parts constantly.

    I don't care all that much what other people do, but I am glad she has a tail. It's fun to play with.
     
  3. *blackrose

    *blackrose "I'm kupo for kupo nuts!"

    Joined:
    May 11, 2010
    Messages:
    7,061
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    2 dogs (and 3 half dogs and a half cat)
    Location:
    Mississippi
    I have never had an issue with any of my dog's front dewclaws. And I honestly don't know why people remove them.

    That being said, BACK dewclaws are another story. My sister's puppy, Wayne, has back dewclaws (along with front dewclaws) and they are super loose and flappy. I'm just waiting for the day they get snagged on something and get ripped off. She's going to have the removed when he's neutered.
     
  4. yoko

    yoko New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2005
    Messages:
    5,347
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    I'm against it personally but I wouldn't care too much if someone wanted to crop or dock their dog.

    Yoshi has her dew claws and has never had any issue with them. If I didn't take care of them I guess I could see issues but I usually just keep them clipped like her other nails and they've never been torn/ripped/caught on things

    She also was her normal hyper self the day after getting spayed. Even the day it was done she was groggy from being put under but the spay itself didn't seem to bug her.


    My friend actually declawed her cat because of that. It was a polydactyl and on one paw the 'extra' thumb and two 'finger's' were 'stuck' so the claws were always out and the other paw all of the claws were extended all the time. They tried to keep them clipped but she still got caught on things. She'd never injured herself but to keep her from accidentally hurting herself while they were at work they got her front paws declawed.
     
  5. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2006
    Messages:
    30,965
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    a lot
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    Home Page:
    I know of some dogs whose lives have been saved by being debarked. For that reason I strongly believe it should be legal and be able to be used as a last option for people.

    All of our papillons except Nard have dewclaws. I know Summer's breeder has started removing them with Nard's litter but all her dogs prior to that litter weren't done. Mia's breeder does not remove them. You can't even see a papillon's dewclaws. My dogs have such hair legs and the dews are really tight. They use them all the time. They're easy to keep down if you trim your dog's nails. Beau has ripped his once but he's also ripped out some other nails too. He's just kind of crazy.

    I do always forget that Nard has no dews when I am doing all their nails. I always search for it for a while before realizing his are missing.
     
  6. PWCorgi

    PWCorgi Priscilla Winifred Corgi

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Messages:
    14,854
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    1
    Location:
    Twin Citay!
    This about debarking.

    If it came down to it, I would have Frodo debarked as a last ditch effort before putting him to sleep. And for a while I honestly thought that was what it might come to when he was barking in our apartment so much.

    Do I think it should be done willy nilly? No, but I think it's better than death!
     
  7. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2006
    Messages:
    30,965
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    a lot
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    Home Page:
    Yeah SA is horrible to live with. With Summer, me and my roomies had staggered schedules and she wasn't ever alone more than 5 or so hours a day TOTAL. She still barked the entire 5 hours though. I am lucky we never got a complaint.

    Most the time it's not a case of people being out 14+ hours all the time. It's also (imo) silly to think everyone can afford a dog walker or dog daycare. Around here it's $20 a day for a 30 minute walk. If people are out working then that's 5 days a week. $400 a month isn't something everyone can afford. Even if I had hired a dog walker, Summer would have barked the entire time, just 30 mins less a day.

    I am very glad having Mia has stopped Summer's SA. I can even leave Summer 100% alone now because with Mia around it's broken the amount of panic enough that she's readjusted to being in her pen as a good thing. Before though, there was no way she would have not panicked enough to ever 'fix' it. And it was not feasible for me to not be gone part of the day. It is such a frustrating situation.
     
  8. PWCorgi

    PWCorgi Priscilla Winifred Corgi

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Messages:
    14,854
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    1
    Location:
    Twin Citay!
    Even if I could afford daycare or a walker, Frodo isn't really daycare or walker friendly :p

    For Frodo it doesn't matter how long we are gone anyway, it's the actual leaving that stressed him out. Thankfully we have it under control 99% of the time now!
     
  9. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2006
    Messages:
    30,965
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    a lot
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    Home Page:
    In my experience SA has nothing to do with the time spent away from the dog or the amount of exercise the dog is getting. Neither of those mattered at all with Summer. It was just the leaving that was the problem.

    I'm glad you're doing better with Frodo. I'm so happy I'm doing better with Summer. But looking back on it... I can see why people feel like they have no choice but debark.
     
  10. Keechak

    Keechak Aussie Obssessed

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2012
    Messages:
    770
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    20
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Home Page:
    I should also add, to my last post on page 8, that rear dews MUST be removed in my breed and I would want them removed on any dog I owned. Rear dews are nothing like front dews and have no use and are at high risk of causing injury, I have seen dogs injure the rear dews myself.

    Tho I am aware that some breeds require rear dews per the breed standard, because it's a trademark of the breed.
     
  11. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2008
    Messages:
    9,420
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2
    Location:
    Georgia
    Out of all our dogs, who all have their dewclaws, only Ozzy injures his frequent enough to consider removal. He uses them, quite a lot, but he also hurts them quite a lot as well. It got to be bad enough once that even wearing skidboots while outside he was still hurting himself.

    We strongly considered having them removed when he was under for his neuter. His dews are strong, but they're not as tight as they could be, I guess? Indys and Enzos dew claws are much harder to separate from the paw to clip, whereas Ozzys just flip out, so I think that's a major reason why he has problems with his.

    We decided against having them removed because they are strongly attached, they're just not tight against the leg, and he does use them quite frequently. I've even seen him use them to get something out of his eye before.

    They can all flex their dewclaws, and all of them use them when chewing. I do like the look of the leg/foot without them, but I wouldn't want to deprive someone of their thumbs, so as long as it's my choice and it isn't causing huge issues, I will leave them on the dog.

    I know some dogs are born without them, or born with them not firmly attached and floppy, and I think in that case the benefit is negligible, and I would elect to have non functional dews removed.

    I do NOT like rear dews, and have seen MANY MANY more get torn off or injured than front dews. I would have those removed asap.
     
  12. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2009
    Messages:
    6,216
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Any idea what breeds? I've never heard a first-hand account of pups born completely without front dewclaws so am curious as to whether this really happens and to whom.
     
  13. JustaLilBitaLuck

    JustaLilBitaLuck New Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    Messages:
    1,945
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    1 Cat, 2 Dogs, 2 Parakeets
    Location:
    Minnesota
    This. I think if debarking is done as a last resort after other options (management, training) have been exhausted, then that's fine. I have a problem with people going "Oh, my dog barks a lot. This is annoying. Time for a debark!" instead of actually working with it.
     
  14. ~WelshStump~

    ~WelshStump~ New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Messages:
    835
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    35
    Well, for Beaucerons I don't really know how much of what is true, like with most of these "traditions" nowadays. One account says it was because they were developed from Boar hunters which traditionally have their ears cropped short for prevention. However, they're so closely related to the Briard, the Briard is also cropped what's their excuse? Well, the second account is that they were a prevention during wolf encounters. All in all, who knows, no one really wrote down at the time "why" for most breeds. I just know that I prefer it, and some people don't and I respect their choice more so if they give me the same respect.

    Wait, seriously? lol, they usually have so much hair I have a hard time telling the cropped from the uncropped dogs, never knew! And well, because of that to tell you the truth I don't really care either way with Pyr Sheps, I do like the nubby butts though.

    :rofl1: You win!

    :( I love seeing your pictures of all the dogs, that's really upsetting to hear!

    Looks like a common bobby to me :p, they don't usually take the answer "born that way"?

    You sure? Because our friends requested their two have a shorter crop and she did it (although I don't really like the males, they ended up a little too short), since you usually know by crop time who's yours she should be able to leave them uncropped at request.

    Not true, more often than not bobbies are longer than the usual dock, which most breeder due to the standard "As short as possible without indent" take it all off to where you don't see or feel any of it as it's been cut flush with the buttock. Jinj has a little of his, not enough you see it as is, but when he's excited a little lump lifts and "wags", I'm so torn! This is one that does rip me apart because I do LOVE nubby butt! But the research is right, longer tails make for more sociable dogs. Again, back to the bobbies, where they are usually longer they are then more practical, to bad it's an incomplete lethal so it'll never penetrate the population.

    Oh my gosh! I had to go look at your photo's again just to see, lol I honestly never noticed them before.

    :)rofl1: My question is "What color is healthy grass?", sorry just had to share!)
     
  15. noludoru

    noludoru Bored Now.

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    17,830
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    1 Dog
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Home Page:
    I am okay with all elective procedures in most situationions.

    Not all - but most. Debarking your dog for shits and giggles seems unnecessary to me.

    I would be perfectly okay with a cropped or docked dog of a non-traditional breed, as long as it was done right. I've always thought a standard poodle would look cool with a show crop. Live and let live.

    As to the dewclaws debate? I am strongly for removing them, and after the nightmares I have had with Middie's dewclaws I will remove them from any dog I neuter in the future. I hate the look of them anyway, but the ridiculous amount of bloody injuries we've seen had in tthe past is not something I want to repeat.
     
  16. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2008
    Messages:
    5,074
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 dogs, 2 cats, 2 birds, and 1 horse
    Location:
    A hole in the bottom of the sea.
    My dogs have had a few injuries to their regular claws, but never their dew claws.
     
  17. JessLough

    JessLough Love My Mutt

    Joined:
    May 16, 2009
    Messages:
    13,402
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    Kennel Manager
    Location:
    Guelph, Ontario
    Well... no.... only to prevent the cat being euthanized or dumped at a shelter. Also, majority of the dogs I see that have had dewclaws removed have been when older, for asthetics rather than to prevent injury.
     
  18. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2008
    Messages:
    9,420
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2
    Location:
    Georgia
    I don't know about breeds, but I've seen a few mutts in daycare that didn't have them, and I was, at the time, considering removing Ozzys, so I was looking at dewclaws a lot lol, but it appeared to me that either the dog had had an accident at an extremely young age and ripped them off, or they were removed by someone, though why you would do that to a litter of mutts is beyond me. It was also strange because one dog came in with a supposed sibling who had their dews, and she didn't. Those two dogs may not have been siblings, they both were cur mixes it looked like, similar enough that they COULD have been related, and were around the same age, but cur like enough that they may just have taken up together and they were found wandering in Atlanta. The one without the dews was a generic brown dog cur mix. The other looked slightly more pit bull-ish, but was merled like a 'houla

    There were a few dogs, like, two that I can recall only had one front dew claw, one of the dogs had his on the left, but not the right. The left was extremely weird looking. The nail grew funny, hard to describe, but it didn't look like a regular dog nail, and the dew itself was definitely not attached. There wasn't one on the other foot.

    The other dog had a normal dew, also on the left, and there was nothing on the right either. I couldn't find a scar to suggest it had been ripped off or removed (why remove one and not the other though?) So it's possible they were born with them, but lost them at some point or another.

    Of those two, the first dog was a Georgia Brown Dog. Very standard looking mutt. Couldn't even begin to tell you what breed, aside from some sort of GSD/Lab/Chow/Pit thing

    The second was another Georgia special, but she was black and white, with a longer coat. Lab/BC/Sheppie something or other.

    So, I don't know. I never thought to ask their parents if they knew more to their stories than I'd been told, or if they'd had an accident or something.
     
  19. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2006
    Messages:
    30,965
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    a lot
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    Home Page:
    Yup! They're traditionally cropped and docked although it's pretty easy to find breeders that don't, or at least the ears. There seems to be a lot more choice available in that breed versus some others I've looked into.

    Yeah, aesthetically I can't tell a difference between Nard (no dewclaws) and the other 4 (with dewclaws). I looked and looked and can't find a picture you can see them on.

    ETA: Ok, here you go:

    [​IMG]
    DSC_1456 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

    You can see them when she's got wet feet and is being a ninja.
     
  20. CatStina

    CatStina SBT Lover!!

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2012
    Messages:
    634
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    5
    Location:
    USA
    Declawing cats is a LOT worse than removing the dewclaw on dogs. I personally knew three cats who were declawed.One was my grandmother's and two were a friend's. When cats are declawed their first knuckle is chopped off. Think about cats for a second. They use a litter box. That means they have to dig in a litter box with their painful recently maimed paws. A lot of cats (I've personally known two) stop using the litter box and start having accidents elsewhere in the house after they're declawed. Their paws also often get infected (I personally knew one who had this happen) because of using the litter box after surgery. Cats also walk on their toes and pretty much have to "relearn" to walk on those bloody painful nubs after the surgery. After being declawed many will became biters. All three cats I knew who were declawed became biters. One of them was PTS, the other dumped at the shelter. Whose fault was it? 1000000000% the fault of the moron owners who thought their furniture was more important than the well being of their cats. Declawing is so much worse than cutting off dewclaws, chopping off ears and tails and, yes, even devocalization. In my experience, it does WAY more harm than good. Declawing is cruelty.
     

Share This Page