What are your views on cropping and docking?

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by Julee, Feb 1, 2013.

  1. crazedACD

    crazedACD Active Member

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    I'm not against it. It would depend on the breed for me, but I probably would not crop one of my own dogs. Docking I'm all for (dependent on breed)...if I ever ended up looking at another pointer puppy, it would absolutely be docked. I've been on the cusp of having Skye's tail amputated because she gets happy tail now and again (and we are BOTH miserable), and has also injured it a few times. I've seen docking in puppies done and from what I saw, it wasn't a big deal.

    I've seen really poorly done crops, and crops that people had no clue how to take care of after (persistent infection). I really think people need to know how to take care of a new crop...
     
  2. Toller_08

    Toller_08 Active Member

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    I guess it doesn't really matter, but I think that would be silly. First of all, a Lab with cropped ears would look ridiculous, and second of all, it's a lot of work to care for cropped ears and get them standing. Why would anyone want to go through that unless they had a traditionally cropped breed and therefore have come to know that look and desire that look? There is a lot of work and patience involved. And initially, it's expensive.

    And if someone docked a Lab's tail, I wouldn't care. Although that seems to kind of defeat the purpose of what a Lab's "otter tail" is supposed to do. Couldn't be much of a rudder if they had none. Plus, a Lab with a tail looks more right to me.

    For me, cropping and docking is mostly for looks. If I'd come to know Dobermans with tails and ears first, I would probably prefer that look. But in North America, they are a traditionally cropped and docked breed and that is the look I've always known, so for me that look for a Doberman is correct and is why I choose to own cropped and docked Dobermans. Not that I had a choice, as typically reputable breeders always crop/dock their dogs, but even if I'd had the choice, I likely still would have opted for my dogs to be cropped and docked.
     
  3. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    Not for me thanks.

    And illegal here anyway so moot point. Unless you have working gundogs.


    Fred doesn't have his dewclaws, and that is hard for me, as I don't agree with it. I never thought to ask that when approaching breeders. It has been a learning curve for me in that respect.


    It makes me really sad that he doesn't have them. I felt a bit dumb when I realised, and guilty. He has little scars there, and it makes my insides go a bit weird.


    It's going to be a struggle when we get our next gsp as looking now, I can't seem to find a breeder who doesn't remove them. Sure we'll find someone out there... I hope. I think we will have more of them in the future! Gsps that is!


    Personally I'm in the camp, if its not broke, don't fix it. Fred is undocked. If he hurts his tail, I'll deal with it the same way as I'd do with Bodhi or any other undocked dog breed.


    If she catches a claw, I'll deal with it. I wish Fred has his thumbs :( if he had an issue with them, we'd have dealt with it. I certainly don't need them off for prevention for something that might never happen.


    And yes, he's none the wiser, but that's not the point for me. I'm actually not sure why it's not banned seeing as they've banned docking.... And cropping has been banned for YEARS. before my time. Only ever seen one cropped dog in my life.
     
  4. Linds

    Linds Twin 2

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    Nope, wouldn't bother me. I would wonder why they did it but I wouldn't find it anymore wrong or right than I would with any traditional cropped breed.

    So yeah, I might look at the people sideways and wonder but I don't think it hurts more or less with a breed not traditionally cropped or docked. Though, like Toller said I do think you would have issues getting it to stand depending on how tall it was and that would mean more time in a cone I would imagine.
     
  5. kady05

    kady05 Active Member

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    I had the same experience with Sako. His breeder sent me a video of him the night of his surgery and he was bouncing around like a mad man. Whereas Wilson was a MESS the night after his neuter.. OMG it was so pitiful.

    Well that'd just be.. weird. But whatever floats your boat, I guess.
     
  6. Oko

    Oko Silence, peasants.

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    I don't like it. Wesley's tail is docked, and it makes me icked out when I feel the end of it and the skin is different and weird. I just don't see the value in cutting parts of a body off for the sake of looks. I wouldn't purchase a dog that's cropped/docked, but I'd be up for rescue (obviously).
     
  7. skittledoo

    skittledoo Crazy naked dog lady

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    I don't have a problem with it as long as it's done by someone who knows what they are doing and do it well.

    Now dewclaws... I honestly HATE dewclaws, especially back dewclaws. All of my dogs do have their dewclaws though (only in the front).
     
  8. SizzleDog

    SizzleDog Lord Cynical

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    :hail:

    ... and breeders who crop will rarely leave a puppy natural, even if money is paid up front. At the time of cropping, we don't know which puppies are show quality and which are pet quality, because Dobermans as a breed are SO competitive in the show ring. Why do you think my posts in the Chaz 2013 Puppy thread are so cryptic? ;)

    This. It seems to me that most people who have seen the results excellent, talented, experienced cropping vets.... don't mind cropping as much as people who haven't. There really is a huge difference between a cropper who is known in the show circles, versus a local vet who happens to offer cropping. The level of comfort and care is vastly different.

    I'm obviously a supporter of the right to crop and dock:
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Toller_08

    Toller_08 Active Member

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    I actually didn't think of that (being harder to get to stand than a typically cropped breed). I just meant that even for a typically cropped breed, the aftercare of cropping (which is best taken care of be a knowledgeable breeder) and then all of the taping/posting after that is what is time consuming. I taped Ripley's ears myself, and caring for them is more work than people would think, and it was stressful wondering if/hoping they would actually stand. I was pretty sure they would, but still.

    But it may or may not be more difficult to get a non-traditionally cropped breed's ears to stand. Would likely depend on the ear leather and maybe even the head shape? Not sure, but either way, I personally don't think there's much worse than a crop and flop, and while it wouldn't bother the dog to be posted for a long time (they aren't in cones - they wear a light cup for a couple of weeks [unless that's what you meant], and then are posted with flexible but straight rods and athletic tape), as an owner I would be stressed out wondering if I just ruined my dog's ears. Since there likely isn't another cropped Lab (or whatever else breed) out there who is cropped to even compare to to see if it worked or not.

    So yeah, that's probably another concern with cropping a breed that is normally not. You probably don't know if the ears actually will stand, depending on a number of things.

    But either way I'd be fine if that's what the owner chose to do. I'd just think it was really odd.
     
  10. milos_mommy

    milos_mommy Active Member

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    To me...docking and cropping are in a far, far, far different boat than devocalization.

    Cropping and docking are not going to drastically change most dogs day-to-day lives. If they're a working dog, yes maybe it will be safer...and a docked tail can have SOME effect on how a dog communications, but in general, it's not going to make any major differences.

    Devocalization is drastically altering a dog's ability to communicate and express themselves, with other dogs and people. Aside from the fact that any debarking I've ever seen was done on an older puppy or dog (except for mass puppy mill debarkings). Imagine being stuck somewhere, separated from your family, or confronted by a big scary dog, and being unable to vocally defend yourself or ask for help. That's how I see debarking. It's the difference between piercing your child's ears without their permission, and severing their vocal cords without permission.

    That said...I personally wouldn't crop or dock a dog unless I had the dog for working purposes and wanted it done, say a dog I would be using heavily for PP, or a working cattle dog. (Even for show/trial purposes, not necessarily real life use). I do think it's extremely trivial to crop or dock a dog for entirely cosmetic purposes...but as with most young puppies it'd be hard to tell if they'll end up leading a working life or not, I do not think banning it would be helpful.

    In places where it is banned except for working gundogs...how do you prove the dog will work? Does the dog have to be from working parents? Do you have to submit any kind of proof the dog works or will work? Or can you just walk in and say "I'm going to be hunting with this puppy, can you dock him for me?"?
     
  11. Sekah

    Sekah The Monster.

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    Cohen is docked and has had her dewclaws removed. I wish neither had been done. She has bare scars where her dewclaws used to be that constantly get scratched and bloody because there's no fur there to protect it. Plus there's talk of tendon issues in dogs who've had dewclaws removed. Her lack of tail must in some way, shape or form effect her balance and maneuverability. I'm pretty convinced that she'd have her handstand trick down pat if she had a tail to act as ballast. Plus, I think she'd look better with a tail.

    When she was a puppy I liked that she'd been cropped and had her dewclaws removed. I thought it was a sign that I got her from a good breeder who cared about the breed standard. Now, the breed standard matters much less to me than functionality.

    However, I have zero problem with people docking, cropping, etc their dogs as long as they're well educated about the process and potential ramifications of it.
     
  12. ~Jessie~

    ~Jessie~ Chihuahua Power!

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    I agree with this.

    Neither one of my current breeds are cropped or docked. Can you imagine if they were? :rofl1:

    If I were to ever get a doberman, I would want it to be cropped/docked. I would be VERY picky about the vet that did the cropping, though. I just think they look so much better when they're traditionally done.
     
  13. Kirsten&Gypsy

    Kirsten&Gypsy New Member

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    I don't care, as long as it's done responsibly.

    My personal preference is probably toward natural, no cropping or docking, just because elective surgery on dogs seems silly to me, but again, I honestly don't care much. If you do it, I certainly won't judge you negatively, not in the slightest.
     
  14. SpringerLover

    SpringerLover Active Member

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    I will never own another dog from a breeder that's been docked, cropped, or had (front) dewclaws removed (I rarely see tight rear dew claws, like Talla's). It is absolutely personal preference and I feel strongly against it.

    That being said, both of my current dogs have docked tails and have had all dewclaws removed (Bailey had front and rear dews).

    I wouldn't turn down a rescue dog for having any of the above cosmetic procedures performed before it came to me.
     
  15. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    Meg was docked when I adopted her; I'd never have had it done, but I admit to loving her little nubbin.

    I wouldn't want to see docking or cropping banned, and try not to be judgmental towards those who choose to do either. I am really not a fan of ear cropping, but it's 99% a looks thing - I have yet to see a breed I prefer cropped.
     
  16. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    [FONT=.HelveticaNeueUI]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/1120/regulation/3/made#top[/FONT]
    [FONT=.HelveticaNeueUI]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=.HelveticaNeueUI]Rather than me type it all out ;)[/FONT]
    [FONT=.HelveticaNeueUI]
    [/FONT]

    Certification requirements

    3.—(1) A veterinary surgeon may certify that he has seen evidence that a dog is likely to be used for a specified type of work and is a dog of a specified type, where—
    (a)he is satisfied that the dam of the dog is of one or more of the types specified in Schedule 1;
    (b)he reasonably believes that the dog is not more than 5 days old; and
    (c)the owner of the dog, or another person whom he reasonably believes to be representing the owner, has shown him the evidence specified in paragraph (2).
    (2) The evidence is—
    (a)the dam of the dog;
    (b)a completed statement, signed and dated by the owner of the dog or by another person whom the veterinary surgeon to whom it is presented reasonably believes to be representing the owner, made in paragraph 3 of a certificate in the form prescribed in Schedule 2; and
    (c)one of the following—
    (i)where the dog is presented for certification on behalf of one of Her Majesty’s armed forces, armed forces identification;
    (ii)where the dog is presented for certification on behalf of a body providing an emergency rescue service, emergency rescue identification;
    (iii)where the dog is presented for certification on behalf of a police authority, police identification;
    (iv)where the dog is presented for certification on behalf of Her Majesty’s Prison Service or of an organisation contracted to provide custodial services on behalf of the Secretary of State, prison service identification;
    (v)where the dog is presented for certification on behalf of Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs, HMRC identification;
    (vi)evidence that the owner of the dog, or an agent or employee of the owner most likely to be using the dog, will be using the dog for work in connection with lawful pest control;
    (vii)a current shotgun or firearm certificate issued to the owner of the dog, or to the agent or employee of the owner most likely to be using the dog for work in connection with the lawful shooting of animals;
    (viii)a letter from a gamekeeper, a land-occupier (or his agent), a person with shooting rights, a shoot organiser, a club official, a person representing the National Working Terrier Federation, or a person engaged in lawful pest control, stating that the breeder of the dog whose tail is to be docked is known to him and that dogs bred by that breeder have been used (as the case may be) on his land, or in his shoot, or for pest control.
    (3) Any certification given under paragraph (1) shall be made in paragraph 1 of a certificate in the form prescribed in Schedule 2.
     
  17. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    Well, I'm going to be the exception then.

    I worked for a vet that cropped. The breed he did the most of was Boxers, because we had a couple of Boxer breeders that came to do the wrapping (they knew more about the aftercare than the vet did), though he did do other breeds as well. He probably cropped most of the show Boxers in the area, as well as many of the pets. So I've seen a lot of cropping. And I don't like it. Don't like the smell, don't like the sore-eared puppies having their ears messed with, don't like the ear infections they seem to get while their ears are wrapped. I also don't like the look (because face it... it's weird. It doesn't look like natural prick ears, it looks like your dog had half it's ear cut off)

    I'm not in favor of illegalizing it, because in general, I'm not a big fan of laws restricting personal choice. I don't demonize my friends who have cropped ears, and get their pups cropped. I don't say anything about it at all, because it's not my choice to make. But it's a thing I don't like, would like to see go away on it's own, and it influences what breeds I want, because I don't want a cropped dog. The biggest reason I ended up with Staffords instead of Amstaffs was natural ears. (though I could have got an Amstaff and not cropped, when I went to a show to see which I wanted, all the Amstaffs had cropped ears and it affected my opinion of the breed.)

    I don't mind tail docking and dew claw removal as much, because they are done so young, the pups get over it fast. They do affect function more, though. And again, I tend not to like the exposed scar. (the vet I worked for would take out an extra vertebrae when docking tails and fold the skin over, so it left no visible scar on the tail stump. I found it less ugly.) I could live with a docked breed. I do tend to prefer dogs that have their bits, though.
     
  18. ~WelshStump~

    ~WelshStump~ New Member

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    What would be your guess?
    [​IMG]
    What? by ~WelshStump~, on Flickr

    But this! ^^^
    Sorry, I've seen dogs who were way worse after an average spay than most average crops.

    Docking, I go traditional only, I do quite despise people who do it later for cosmetic reasons! Do it early or don't do it at all, period.

    On cropping and ear problems though, my worst ear infection dog has naturally prick ears, Enda still gets dirty ears on occasions that need to be cleaned well with her cropped set, and the dog who has so far had the least problems, is the one with the floppy set! Go figure.

    For Dew claws, I've recently become more and more anti front removal, after what's happened to the only dog I've owned who had his removed, they're swollen from arthritis and he's starting to not stand right on the one foot because of it, not to forget the limping. I've had more problems with him alone, than the 4 I've had with intact dews, including the one now with sickly overgrown nails (still working on that beast).

    I'm overall, very pro-choice, there are worse things in this world to be worried about, why bother. As for the other things mentioned though, I'm very anti declawing of cats, because they are the worst biters! I'm half/half on de-barking, as it is No, I don't agree with it at all, BUT, I think that the option SHOULD stay, why? Because when you hit the courtroom and wind up with the 3 choices of "Move (what if you can't?), sign over to AC (where they might be killed), or de-bark", yeah, I think that one instance should stay open, owning a Corgi I know I'd probably get picked up if I lived next to one of those neighbors, and if I absolutely didn't have the option of moving I would rather my dog be voiceless and loving life than dead.
     
  19. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    I often thought cropping my wheaten would have been cool.

    I find dewclaw removal to be the worst, I like my thumbs and I figure it would be wrong to steal my dogs.

    That said I support debarking when it is an issue of housing. I have worked with countless (my first job had forty debarked eskies) dogs who were debarked, none were worse for wear but many often regrew their bark and it was always pained and raspy, sometimes more annoying than the first bark.
     
  20. crazedACD

    crazedACD Active Member

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    110% agree. Declawing cats is a big no, and I have no problem expressing that opinion to anyone.

    Debarking I totally agree...I believe it should remain as a last resort option.
     

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