Weave woes

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by Laurelin, Jun 20, 2013.

  1. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    We've done a lot of send the dog to a target work but it's been a while. We will revisit that and I think Summer especially could use some more work.
     
  2. Sekah

    Sekah The Monster.

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    I would just toss the treat to the target. Though, any time we've incorporated a target into 2x2 training, we've introduced it later once the dog is performing at least 1-2 open but angled gates. My gut says build value for the gate before you add additional complexity by adding a target. You may not need it if you go back and work your way up more slowly this time.

    This all reminds me that I've been wanting to teach Mega how to weave... maybe I'll give it a go. Small dogs definitely have a harder time understanding the movement through the gates and tend to look down at the base instead of forward.
     
  3. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    I need to clarify, I don't use a target for 2x2's either. Only advised using a target to teach them to leave you :)
     
  4. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Ok so my plan is to work the target with Summer for a while and forget weaves. Once I pull out the weaves for her then what? Target and throw treats or just throw treats?

    Since Mia is tacking the ball well inside should I just start there? Roll the ball through the open 2x2?
     
  5. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Here either, we started jump drive (desire to cross without baiting across, adding value to just moving out or over or across), lunging send(now the dog must hold and move with your body), and the go out (wrap around an object once sent). These all seemed to help not needing a target for the weaves.

    My trainer uses smaller houla hoops and makes us throw 10 each class from the waist, wrist flicking, and aiming from both hands every day of foundations. It seemed silly but it did help.
     
  6. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Why not use the ball as the reward instead of the lure?
     
  7. Sekah

    Sekah The Monster.

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    I would just use your release cue. Don't name it until you have the behaviour you want. It will likely take several weeks.

    Luring, especially with something as engaging as a ball, won't be too helpful. Use it as a reward that drops down along the reward line after the dog interacts with the gate, not a lure.
     
  8. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Honestly (and this is rather embarrassing) Mia locks onto the ball when I have it in my hand. Most behaviors are easier to use food so I've just avoided the problem. We have used the ball for stays but I put her in a stay, throw the ball, then release her. Haven't involved anything more complicated with it yet.
     
  9. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    Just move to Minnesota and take my 2x2 class. :D Problem solved.

    To get the best advice, throw up a video. But it seems like you have a lot of help here already.
     
  10. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    I will throw up a video tomorrow morning of the target work were goin to do.

    I think I have a lot of competing issues right now that all need work but have (miraculously) not affected my other agility training.

    1. Harness Mia's ball drive. A little daunting of a task
    2. Teach Summer to follow a treat toy better.
    3. Work on sending them to a target (do I put them in a stay and release?)
    4. Start 2x2s again from scratch.
     
  11. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Start with food then bring out the ball to challenge her work ethic. This obsession is why I could not use a toy to start Backup.

    The goal is to condition the dog to learn the reward line, they only and always get the toy on the reward line, perform correctly and it appears, incorrectly and they try again. If they can't think clearly with a toy in hand you can try hiding it but more than likely its easier to go to a lower value reward and build up.

    Again, I'm no expert on weaves but I'm experienced with obsessive cannot think clearly drive. lol shocker, I know.
     
  12. CaliTerp07

    CaliTerp07 New Member

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    I put up 12 weaves with xpens down the sides. It looked like this:

    [​IMG]

    At the far end, I'd put a baited target, show the dog, and drag them back to the entrance. Release them in the front and run down the side lines. The dogs almost all (1/100 won't) run quickly down the lane. The ones who try to back out can be solved easily by putting an extra gate across the entry once they're in, so they can only get out by going forward.

    Once the dog is confidently going in on their own, we trade xpens for little garden guides like these: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Hampton-...eel-Garden-Fence-51259/203005101#.UcNrxJxQqrE
    [​IMG]

    They alternate every other side, and we'll walk the dog through on a vertical leash (so we can stop them if they choose to go out instead of through). There's no pushing or luring the dog through, just preventing them from making wrong choices. Soon they can do it without the leash, and then we'll gradually remove the guides one at a time.
     
  13. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    I will go against the general mindset I see in agility these days (not everyone, for sure, but a lot of people) and say loud and proud that it is okay to not train weaves using 2x2 if they aren't working for you. Seriously.

    I've seen dogs with killer weaves trained with 2x2. I've seen dogs will killer weaves trained with channels. And shaping. And weave-o-matics. One of the most reliable weaving dogs (and a toy dog to boot) that I train with was trained using gates like Cali described. 2x2 works, but so do other methods. And I believe just about any dog can be trained with all of those methods, so you need to find what works for YOU.

    I can't train with 2x2. I tried. I went to a seminar. I watched the DVD and took notes and read the articles and holy hell my brain does not work that way. It just isn't for me, and Gusto was getting even more frustrated.

    I shaped my weaves. That's how my brain works, plus I have a dog who is a genius at shaping. And people make me feel guilty (granted, not a hard thing) for not having trained with 2x2.

    I was having a long talk this weekend with a good friend, who is a brilliant trainer, and one thing that came up was 2x2 training. She actually mentioned that there is a "modified" 2x2 method by Mary Ellen Barry that she found much easier to work with. The article is free on Clean Run's website; I actually keep meaning to go look at it.
     
  14. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    Must be different areas -- 2x2 isn't really all that common here. I'd say most people train by channels. Some use guides, some don't. And many have great weaves. Like you with 2x2s, for whatever reason I just can't train channels. It's no fun for me, I don't like it. Doesn't make my way right or wrong, I just do what works for me. Just like everyone else :)

    Well in the interest of full disclosure I don't really technically train by the Official Garrett 2x2s either haha. I kind of made it up as I went along, and then incorporated stuff that Dana Pike uses to clarify a few things for my dogs. It's pretty similar though.

    That said, the link to the article by Mary Ellen Barry is here: http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=457
     
  15. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    I will totally repeat this. I train 2x2's. I have a love affair with 2x2's. But I understand the method forwards and backwards, left and right. I've taught a 2x2 class for the last 2 years and have people travel from across the state to take this class. I can easily train a dog this way, but not everyone can and that's ok.

    Everyone struggles with the concept and that's why we have a whole class dedicated to it. I struggled with the concept after watching the dvd and even after training my first dog on it. Having a trainer watching and helping really is the key with this method in my opinion. At least until the dog has the pattern and reward line established, then it's pretty easy to finish them up yourself.
     
  16. k9krazee

    k9krazee Active Member

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    I've only ever taught weaves with guides and I have dogs that LOVE weave poles more than any other obstacles.

    I don't rush to take off the guides and in order to endure he knows to always complete the entire obstacle, I alternate and vary the length of the poles from 3, 6, 9 or 12. We just keep it very informal and run through just a couple times a day.

    I would say, if you aren't seeing results with a current technique I'd switch it up. Keep things extremely short, light and fun!!
     
  17. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    Around here you get pretty much this face: :yikes: when you say you didn't use 2x2 (or at least in the crowd I tend to trial with I guess; I can't speak for the whole region). Then they offer sympathy that your dog will never really understand entries because you were too stupid to use 2x2.

    I really think the method matters more for the person than the dog; like I said, you need to find out what your brain works with the best.

    I did glance through the MEB article; I might play around with it a bit while I'm between classes. I've got a set of 2x2 sitting around, so I may as well find something to do with them!
     
  18. CaliTerp07

    CaliTerp07 New Member

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    This this this this!!!

    All the methods work. All of them can work extremely well, if you use them correctly and consistently. All of them can fail miserably if you aren't confident or comfortable in what you're doing.
     
  19. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    That's kind of funny. Here it's more like "hey your dog has nice weaves!" and "wow you need to work on those weaves..."

    If your dog can weave with speed and reliability, whatever you did was good. If your dog can't weave, whatever you did was wrong. If your dog can hit amazing entrances and whip through the poles like a slinky on speed, then whatever you did was kickass and your dog is a heck of an athlete. That's about as far as it goes.
     
  20. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    What kind of guides did you use?

    I'm having one of those days where I feel like a shitty trainer. :eek: I need a drink. lol
     

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