Vaccines

Discussion in 'Dog Health Care' started by Laurelin, Jan 4, 2010.

  1. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    I've been researching vaccines a bit in papillons in particular. Mia's breeder does limited vacs and as you probably know Hiro died from an adverse reaction to lepto. I found this and it was kind of interesting to me:

    Why would that be? What causes certain breeds to have more reactions to shots than others?

    ETA: It's from here: Sulean Papillons & Wearable Art
     
  2. mmorlino

    mmorlino New Member

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    Could it be simply the weight?

    A great dane gets the same size vial as a pap does.

    I have heard of many instances of reactions in mini dachshunds - never because of the breed, but because of the size.

    I usually recommend to people that if lepto and corona are not an issue in your area, then don't vaccinate for them, as those two are usually the cause of reactions.

    I also give my dogs and puppies a small dose of Children's Benadryl 30 minutes before a vaccine in order to avoid reactions. I've never had one in my dogs but have seen one in a friend's husky.
     
  3. tessa_s212

    tessa_s212 Guest

    Vaccines are neurotoxic to *people*. I imagine they are harmful to dogs, especially smaller dogs, for the same reasons.
     
  4. MandyPug

    MandyPug Sport Model Pug

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    I know Pugs are especially prone to vaccine reactions in general but especially lepto. I don't know why, but i know i don't risk it. I don't vaccinate and my vet looks the other way and is understanding even though he doesn't necessarily approve.

    I think of it like this... I don't vaccinate myself every year or even every 3 years and I'm still fine. Not to mention the Rabies Challenge Fund proving that the Rabies jab lasts 7 years at least which means the others likely last for a while too.
     
  5. Zoom

    Zoom Twin 2.0

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    It might be a drug sensitivity linked to a certain gene mutation, much like Aussies (and most of the "collie" breeds) with the MDR1 mutation. Dogs with this mutation have severe and oftentimes fatal reactions to ivermectin, so it's just easier and cheaper to issue a blanket statement saying "don't use ivermectin".
     
  6. GlassOnion

    GlassOnion Thanks, and Gig 'em.

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    Where did they prove that? All I've seen from them is wanting to raise the vaccination threshold. Never seen them actually prove anything.
     
  7. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    Lepto is a nasty vaccines for any dog breed. We don't use lepto, lyme, or corona vaccines around here. Despite all the hype a neighboring vet clinic is trying to make over lepto to get more business, it;s just not necessary around here.

    A lot of dogs have rabies vaccine reactions. Especially small breeds. For the reason we usually split vaccines in small breed dogs, if they are due for more than one in any given year.
     
  8. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    Our vet doesn't give the lepto vaccine around here. She told me that the strains of lepto in our area and the strains that the vaccine protects against are totally different, so it wouldn't work anyway. My friend in the next county over's vet told her the same thing.

    That's pretty interesting with the papillons. I've never heard of sighthounds being sensitive to specific vaccines. The size thing makes sense though, when you consider that you jab a 180 st. bernard with the same dose as a chi puppy.

    Strider's trainer used a vet (from the same clinic we go to) who will dose vaccines by weight for smaller dogs. We never bothered because both of our guys were big by the time we started going there, but they are the only people she trusts to vaccinate her scotty.
     
  9. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    I always heard that the dose should not be adjusted for the size of dog. I forget the reasoning behind it, but I think I'll look it up in the morning.
     
  10. MericoX

    MericoX Roos, Poos, & a Wog!

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    Schnauzers are the same, a lot have bad reactions to the Lepto and Lyme so I do not get it. I'm not sure if its the same as poodles, but they din't get it either.
     
  11. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    We've actually known that for a long time10 years or more. the only thing holding things up is that for "proof" they have to not only show protection in blood tests, they have to "challange" the vaccination 7 years later with actual Rabies.

    That hasn't been done before in enough clinical settings or in large enough numbers to change the protocols.
     
  12. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    It is interesting to me that lepto seems to be a problem and even fatal in a lot of breeds and yet it is still in many areas considered a necessary shot. Why is this? I can definitely understand parvo and distemper vaccines and rabies is currently required by law but if lepto isn't even much of a worry in the area and it is such a dangerous vaccine, why are we still routinely giving lepto shots? My vet in OK doesn't give lepto to puppies but does give them to adults and the one in TX was a pain to get them to skip lepto. I got drilled on lepto 5 or so times and I had to keep insisting that I didn't want it for Mia.

    Romy, don't sighthounds have issues with anesthesia though?

    Does anyone do titers? Do those work? After Hiro and talking to Mia's breeder I'm skipping lepto altogether but I'm thinking about doing less of other shots as well.

    ETA: Another semi related question: What vaccines do they do over seas? I'm just curious.
     
  13. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    They do have anesthesia issues, and they can also have problems with other drugs. Part of it is that MRD1 gene mutation, but I've also heard people say that their low body fat makes it more difficult to process and eliminate toxins from the body. I don't know if there's any research to support that, but in a way it makes sense. When your body gets hit with too many toxins to process at once, they often accumulate in your fat until your organs get around to dealing with them later.

    Here's a link to WSU's webpage about drug sensitivity and MRD1 mutation. You can order a kit to get your dog tested for the gene, it's only $70. They also have a ton of information on other drugs and things that can affect the dogs.

    MDR1 gene testing
     
  14. Kmh1

    Kmh1 Member

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    I went through the same thing Laurelin. I tried to skip Lepto and Lyme's last year based on negative info I read about them and received a lecture from my vet. He even said if its a "money" issue, we can see what else we could cut down on etc. With what I spend on these animals and their care I was kind of put out by that --I explained it was an effectiveness and possible side effects issue and he pretty much dismissed my concerns and said if Zippy were to have a reaction he would probably have already had one --and it was so unlikely I was ridiculous to worry about it ---and how would I feel if my dog got sick from something I could have prevented? I am sorry to admit that I caved and got the shots. Thanfully Zippy has had no bad reactions
    Like you mentioned with the papillons, Manchesters are also considered in the same category of sighthounds when it comes to particularly anesthesia sensitivity. My vet refused to follow Zippy's breeder and breeder's vets guidelines on anesthesia for his neuter, so I drove him 3 hours to Baltimore to his breeder's vet to have him fixed.
    So I understand it can be difficult when you vet will not work with you on certain health decisions. I'm glad you were able to stick to your guns. Now I have to figure out how to approach my vet about anesthesia for a dental that I think Zippy will need this year.
     
  15. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    I wonder if if low body fat is an issue. Paps are very very slender and have zero fat on them, plus they are so small to begin with. Manchesters seem very slenderly built compared to most breeds too.

    It's just a really interesting subject for me and one I want to learn more about especially if I get into breeding ever.
     
  16. Bigpoodleperson

    Bigpoodleperson Megan and Draco

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    As for giving lepto at my clinic, we give it on a case by case basis. Awhile ago we refused to give it all together and didnt carry it even. Over the past couple years we have seen a high rise of lepto cases in our county, and even more coming from Chicago. We have the newer lepto vaccine that covers the most common strains. It is considered "safer" then the "old" vaccine. We dont give it in a combo with other vaccines. We talk to the owners about their lifestyle, their pets lifestyle, chances of exposure, etc. We dont vaccinate indoor dogs who rarely go out. Dogs that go to forest preserves, have lots of wildlife in the yard, etc we do encourage owners to vaccinate.
    A neighboring clinic treated a young yorkie for lepto and she Never went outside (pee pads and everything). They suspected that rats/mice in the house gave it to her.

    I have Riley vaccinated against lepto as we have alot of "risk factors". We have lots of wild animals pass through our yard, we go to lots of parks and forest preserves, he goes tracking, etc. It is a problem in our area, so i chose to cover him for it.

    As for anesthesia, there are certain anesthetics where body fat plays a Huge roll! Those are more the older, less common ones now, but some are stored in body fat. So if there is no body fat then there can be too much anestheia running through the system.

    If i had a sighthound that had to have anesthesia i would do my research. Use a vet that had those safe products available. Made sure they didnt use any "unsafe" drugs. I would not however make my vet use a Certain program. I would trust my vets judgement. Some drugs a vet isnt comfortable using as they never have. You get a comfort zone for a drug and know what results it gives. I would rather my vet use a protocal they are comfortable with then one that they are not and something happens.
     
  17. PoodleMommy

    PoodleMommy Yorkie Love

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    My vet I was using recently adjusted the dogs dosage of certain vaccines because they are so small... I liked that about him alot.

    I also skip some vaccines, will only do ONE vaccine at a time, and plan to titer as they get older for everything... I believe over vaccination for sure is causing many of the health issues we are seeing with dogs.
     

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