Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by Promethean, May 22, 2009.
Darren Naish: Tetrapod Zoology: Controversial origins of the domestic dog
This and other theories of domestic dogs' origins suggest strongly that they are not true pack animals at all. Social yes, pack or hierarchial animals, no.
Thanks Dober. If I can reach just one, then the ramifications for their future dogs would be great!
Fransheska, what you see on Cesar's show and what behaviorists and many of us here on this forum see is diametrically opposed. I know dogs and their body language and behavior and I see learned helplessness and extreme stress signals on a great deal of dogs he works with. So, to me, his methods are wrong and in many instances abusive. I don't go along with the politically "correct" view point that "there is no wrong answer. Not all dogs need the same 'method', (when a different method includes mistreatment) to each his own." No, I absolutely can not condone most of the "methods" Cesar Milan uses.
Im not saying you guys dont have the right to say your opinion, obviously, you do. I just think you guys could've gotten through to a lot more people if you didn't put them on the defensive and making yourself out to be a know it all as well as make them feel like you were calling them all dog abusers.. which is kind of what the title " READ THIS AND LEARN! ABUSE IS NOT NEEDED!" does. maybe a title like "just an article i found, from a different point of view" or something like that would change more people. You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar
Im NOT A FAN of his techniques . I like some of the thing he does, I like daddy showing a nice side of pitbulls, and I like some other things but i WOULD NEVER use his methods on my dog or recomend his methods to anyone else.
Im not trying to come of to be ceasars #1 fan. i just think getting people on the defensive, calling them dog abusers, and trying to "educate" them in such a harsh way is not going to get through to anyone.
I agree with that. And it is trolling.
What is trolling? I don't get it.
Some people have strong opinions about the welfare of dogs. And when they see a dog drooling and cowering, his ears back, the whites of his eyes showing, his tail tucked between crouching back legs as his air supply is being cut off as Cesar forcefully drags while he pulls the dog by a choke chain across a slippery floor, lifting a lot of the dogs weight up off the floor by the choker...well some people have a hard time handing out the honey. It makes some of us very angry indeed. Anyone who emulates these kinds of tactics on dogs IS abusive and I'm not about to sugar coat it. It is what it is. I can't be a mamby pamby who won't stand up against what I know is WRONG. Yeah, they might get put on the defensive, but they do anyway. I've gone the gentler approach and so have a LOT of people. You know why they go on the defensive? I'll leave my theories as to the answer in the air.
That. Trolling would be calling them idiots, being combative and insulting. I am remaining neutral and gentle, just hoping to educate SOMEONE. Even if it is just a lurker, that abuse is NOT on.
Ok. im not saying what your saying ISNT RIGHT. im saying your not going to get through to anyone with a title like "READ THIS AND LEARN! ABUSE IS NOT NEEDED" that says 2 things.. 1. you are stupid, come read and learn and 2. you are abusing your dog.
those are not things that dog lovers wanna hear and it sure as hell isnt going to make them more open minded about anything. it puts them on the defensive.
I just think a thread title change is in order if you want to get to anyone
I don't see it in that way at all. I didn't tell anyone that they are abusing their dogs.
Meh, maybe it is just that people see things in a different way.
At the grooming shop we have a few dog owners who are big fans of the Dog whisperer (wrong title for him btw) They seem to have the most screwed up dogs. But, they will defend him to the end. As professionals in the dog field we do not put down any dog trainer instead we just avoid the question if one of our clients asks if we love him. Instead my Sister will say she has watched a few of his shows and was not impressed and would never apply that form of training to her dogs. Then the funny part is when their dogs are acting horribly and they don't even seem to notice it and my Sisters dogs and mine are acting wonderful they still try to hand out training tips and why Caesars' way is the right way :rofl1: Now that really makes me laugh. My Sister did a grooming house call for a huge Caesar fan, she can no longer get her dogs to the grooming shop as they are too much for her. My Sister came to her house she is blocking their way and making these weird strange pssssst noises that we saw trainers use decades ago and used to make us laugh our butts off!!! silly very silly. Anyway the dogs are very misbehaved and all she talked about all day was how much Caesar has helped her and she never misses a show and how she cried when he helped an ex military dog. My Sister was very non committal and just looked at her dogs and said instead of doing this psssst and blocking the dogs why not redirect, why not instead of this do this. The dog owner just blocked everything out as it seems they get brain washed. Anyway seeing her dogs they are horrible representatives of good dogs the opposite is true. They have also ended up being unpredictable and no longer give warnings. My Sister has been grooming them since puppies and their temperaments are getting worse and they are large dogs. Since they are so suppressed you really have to know a lot about dog body language to groom them so you can tell when they tense up etc. I think the dog whisperer show provides good drama and entertainment but is not a dog training show or a show to watch if your having problems. Heck any person who has worked with dogs long enough and has dog skills can take even the worst out of control dog from a novice and make the dog look exceptionally good. My Sister has this happen all the time, the dogs are wonderful for her because they pick up on her confidence yet bad for their owner as the owner confuses the heck out of them.
Anyhow, training a dog is not rocket science it's all about routine, giving proper direction and tons of proper socialization. Heck when I was a kid all the dogs ran at large in my neighbor hood they were all basically Shepherd husky mixes or lab mixes not really many smaller dogs. The males were left intact and so were many females. We kids would have dozens of dogs with us. But, because these dogs learned at the critical period how to properly socialize they turned out to be excellent dogs. We never had any fear of dogs, even when a female came into heat the males never got upset they would have squabbles but they all ended up breeding the female. A good dog is a dog that learns from basic routine and socialization which many dogs are missing out on now a day. We always had dogs when I was growing up and no one gave much thought to aggression or being spoiled, pack leaders etc. Dogs were and should be just a natural part of the house hold. They are after all opportunistic scavengers that even when they are feral will stay around human settlements and learn the routine to keep themselves alive.
Edited to add, although there were some not so smart dog owners in the area I grew up and left their dogs intact. Our dogs were always spayed and neutered. Many owners did get their females spayed but it was common in my area to leave the males intact. All these dogs were wonderful good dogs, and even the neighborhood dogs would play with us at school and wait for us until we got out of school and walk us home. I grew up with dogs that learned to be all around good dogs by owners who allowed them to socialize.
IF my dog cowered when i said to do something i think it would break my heart. WE work like a team around here. Good article.