Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by Dirk, Sep 27, 2006.
Oh good. I say we both treat ourselves to some chocolate. We deserve it!
I felt the same way so I ate four...count em four, enormouse chocolate chunk cookies, now I don't feel so good.
I almost missed it...great idea. I'll be back on later to reply.
see too many treats can be bad:yikes: , i'm ducking for cover just to be safe, but my last comment was purely for entertainment purposes!
AHhahaha:lol-sign: I didn't sit for em either, but I sure as he!! am now...blah, I just feel gross.
Glad we can have a chuckle and I still believe that given the opportunity to chat over cocktails, we'd probably all get along famously...and if not, we'd just order more drinks!!!
It's so easy to get off in the wrong direction when responses are typed rather than face to face...
By the way, for that last comment....consider yourself ALPHA ROLLED!
Popping back in for a minute (or two) ..
This quote kind of illustrates the whole problem I see here. This is not based on fact, it's based on opinion. This is what works FOR THE PERSON WHO POSTED .. but it doesn't mean that training with a combination of rewards and aversives is NEEDED - it's just what that person needs in order to get a reliable dog.
There are people out there who get very reliable behaviors in their dogs using positive training with no physical aversives or force in any way. Just because others can't, doesn't mean that those who can are wrong! It takes a strongly committed person to train a dog without using the force that comes so naturally to all of us. It's admirable that some people can train that way .. I don't have the full amount of patience to do that, I admit. I use very few aversives compared to most of the trainers in my area, but I certainly can't call myself 100% positive. And that's what works for me. I don't want my dogs to respond out of fear .. but I do want compliance, and I do take some short-cuts to get that. Call me lazy .. I admit it .. *L*
I also adjust the training to fit the particular dog. My chows are tough. They may look soft and cuddly (and they are at times) but down deep those dogs have a very high pain tolerance and shake off corrections very easily. They're also extremely independent dogs. I use primarily positive with them but there are times when I grab the scruff and turn a fluffy face to me and say "KNOCK IT OFF!!" .. and that is effective, because in my experience this is a breed that needs to know that you will step in and insist that they listen. It doesn't have to be harsh, but it has to be consistent.
My shepherds, on the other hand, were trained positive from day one and it built a very strong bond .. little to no corrections are needed with dogs like those. Any corrections they have had were from my frustrations (mostly due to some physical problems I have had). I can call them off of a moose or a squirrel even when prey drive is high and they're excited. Their behaviors have been shaped to respond to me because I have been highly motivating with them throughout their lives.
So - these are the techniques that work for ME. I won't say that you can't get a reliable dog with other techniques. I think that those who spend the time and effort to train purely positive can get amazing results. Most of us won't go to that effort.
In training classes, I don't recommend corrections to the vast majority of my students. I want them to learn to think about what they're doing, to consider what the dog is thinking, and to reward appropriately for the right behaviors. Telling them to use a correction is counter-productive to their education in dog training. And I feel the same about this forum - telling someone to use corrections for a behavior none of us can see is basically recommending abuse. So when it comes to discussions on this forum about proper training techniques, I will always lean towards the positive. I think we have to be careful what we say online as many people will go out and try things on their dogs that could easily end up being very harsh.
As far as my qualifications go .. I started training seriously in 1988 when I acquired my first full German shepherd. I was an EMT with an emergency medical service and he was going to be my search and rescue dog. I did work him towards that end, but we didn't get much SAR work in before I left the EMS. I continued his obedience training, however, and he went from Novice A to completing his U.D. Along the line, I picked up a rescue Aussie, and put a U.D. on her too. And then my first chow came along, a rescue, in 1991. I trained her through utility, but she only earned a C.D.X. (along with four other obedience titles, four agility titles and a BH).
While I was training, I was also a veterinary technician and worked in that capacity for a number of years. I attended numerous training seminars and travelled to the lower 48 states to work with other trainers. Along the line I ended up with nearly 30 performance titles on my dogs (total of two GSD's, one Aussie, and three Chows).
I've been teaching classes - everything from basic puppy to competition utility - since 1989. I added in behavior consultations many years ago and am recommended by the local vets. I've shown my dogs in conformation, obedience, rally, agility, schutzhund, herding and tracking. Currently I'm teaching classes in rally and freestyle.
And I'm too busy to be on here much .. *L* .. takes a long time to respond to these posts!
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
Melanie, I don't have the energy to debate anymore in this thread. Sorry.
Your MORE than welcome to come to Ohio and meet Maddie ...
but please, can I have some chocolate? It was a long read :lol-sign:
I'm afraid I don't have any candy left, I ate the last Kit-kat a few minutes ago. But I have plenty of hot cocoa left. It's slowly dissapearing though, so better grab some cyber coco quick!
You know...I actually didn't proof Lyric to deer specifically....not at all. He just had a stupendous recall in a lot of other scenarios when these deer chasing episodes took place while out on hikes. He was able to apply it, stop mid chase, turn and come back to me. Maybe its his breed. But I notice he does have rather a high prey drive. But he's also a Doberman and he's very adept at obedience type stuff. If I ever scold him harshly, vocally, he looks crushed, absolutely pathetic. So, it's rare that I ever say more than "eh, eh" or "hey! Quit!" I wouldn't dream of using any aversives while he's learning something. If he doesn't do something right, it means he's not ready for that in that particular degree of distraction or type of distraction. I need to go back to an easier place and work more with him there and then work back up. That's how I see it.
I have no history training dogs professionally. But I've had and trained my dogs of various breeds (some GSDs, a Lab, some mix breeds, a Beagle mix, Lab mix and my present dogs) since I was 10 and have studied the science of behavior and training for a long time (since my early 20's when I was first married) and quite extensively (obsessively) in the last 5-6 years. I did train horses before I moved here and had horses all my life. When I was still in my teens, I started teaching riding lessons. I was always one of those kids who people said, "she has a way with animals." LOL. It might be a way, but it comes from living with them since I was a 5 yr. old. Anyhow, I just love dogs and have such a fascination about their behavior, their evolution, domestication process and I've just started writing a book...got the intro done. However, I'm stuck on chapter one....writer's block.
I'm starting just now with a few people in my area. One wants me to show her how to teach her dog some tricks. One has two Min Pins that won't come when called and a few other behavior glitches. One other person, I'm not sure about...it sounds like they've mistreated their dog. She seems to have submissive urination and "looks guilty" when they come home and so she "knows" she's done "wrong" when they come and find their garbage spilled out. That one, I saw in the beauty shop. She was very nasty to her little 2 yr. old child....very nasty, telling her in a very bossy, mean tone to pick up the thing she dropped on the floor and throw it in the garbage. The child just stood there. The mother said it louder and more bossy than before. I was cringing the whole time my hair was being cut. Why couldn't she have picked up the trash can and show it to the little girl and say in a friendly, kind voice, "here, let's put that in here." Why are people so nasty to their children and dogs? So, I don't know what I can do about that. I mean....I know what to do, but will she? I'm not so sure I want to go completely into this at this time. Its not the dogs who I have a problem with. It would be their owners. I have been looking into going to a behavioral college. Can you believe it? At my age? LOL. But I have more to think about and need some extra money.
So, I'm happy to be here and be able to learn things from you professional trainers. I loved reading Dr2Little's thingy about the emergency recall. I love it. Oh and I learned an even better way than I was doing for the watch me command. Lyric watches me pretty well. But I can see why this other method is even better. Even with all the reading I do, there's always one little tip here and one tip there that I find I haven't come across or taken the time to read.
And don't think I'm holier than thou because I don't believe in using aversives. You should have seen what I did the time when Lyric was younger and we were just entering agility class, just coming through the gate. Strong boy that he was, he pulled my over prone. I ate dirt. Boy was I ticked and embarrassed. I gave him H-E double hockey sticks, called him the F word and grabbed his muzzle because it was the closest thing to me, (flailing primate that I am)....everything that one should not do, especially swear at your dog. OMG! I felt so awful afterwards. I don't believe in doing something like that and yet I did that one time. Anyhow, I hurried up and got him trained better....I think before the next class. LOL.
Sorry Dober, but I had to laugh at that one :lol-sign:
Sounds good to me!
He sounds a lot like my Bear. Such a soft dog, I honestly can't recall ever using a physical collar pop with him. I've placed him plenty when he was younger, and still use verbal corrections on occasion, but he never needed anything more.
I think it's such a joy to come across dogs like these. The ones that think the world really does revolve around you, lol. Although he often makes me feel like a better trainer than I probably am....but, to get a reality check I just have to work my other dogs who think the world revolves around all of us.
Lyric is really one big contradiction. He's easy to train and he can also be difficult. He is dependent and willing in so many ways and yet, many times he's also got a better way to do things which he needs to show me. LOL. I have had to get much more creative with him than I was say, for my Lab and my last GSD. They were not quite so busy. It's like Lyric has things he needs to get to, so can we please get to the point here Mom? I've got a busy schedule He seems to catch on so much more quickly with fewer repitions than the other dogs I've had.....which is a good thing because he can't handle too much repitition all at one time. When we're working on perfecting something, just a little better heel or whatever, he sometimes looks up at me, I swear...it's like, "And your point is????" Then he gets it tidier. "Is this better?" LOL. How's that for anthromophizing?
And then there is Jose. He'll do anything, jump off a bridge for a treat. But I don't spend that much time with the Chi's with training other than basics and a few tricks. I really should spend more time with them. They'd make great little obedience dogs. My back just couldn't take bending down luring them into a heel or giving them treats. There's the drawback of treat training, when you are working with Chihuahuas. And Chulita is already perfect. She even went through my little agility course with luring the first time...absolutely fearless of anything and so excited. I really should do that with her more. She'd have fun. I'm afraid little Jose's luxating patellas couldn't hack all that, although he does all right on hikes, running....maybe a little bit. His knees aren't too bad, but he did have surgery in one, which doesn't appear to be holding too well at all times anymore.
And Toker. That's my son's dog. He is the one who mostly works with her and he mostly does tricks. I work with her very little, but do have to be the one to show her her manners. She's come a long way though since she's been here. She had a few glitches in the manners dept. but over all is a really nice dog....very willing and smart.
OK, I've digested my cookies...or at least I'm not green anymore, so I'll tell you about how I started training and what I'm doing now. I'll try to keep it brief.
As a child, the only dog I had was a little dachshund named Fritz. I was told he ran away when I was 6, I found out in my 40's that he actually died from eating a tin foil pie plate that my dad gave him his dinner on...no one had the heart..or the guts to tell me.
When I was about 9, my best friends dad ran a school for (dogs) protection training, it later became a Schutzhund school...
Anyway, I spent every day there, looking back I'm sure they wondered if I had parents. I have to say that if there was one thing that I could erase from my memory it would be how my friends dad (a retired police officer), treated these wonderful dogs. All of the dogs were GSD's except 2 and some were so poorly treated that you couldn't get anywhere near them. I hated my friends dad but I couldn't stay away from the dogs.
There were a few dogs that my friend and I would "work with", that were owned by her family and that's where the bug bit...hard.
When I was a teen, I helped a local trainer (comp. obedience and other dog sports), and she was my first mentor. It was at a time when Barbra Woodhouse was "the queen" and every dog wore a choke chain, it was the way things were and I was happily involved in every aspect of her training business. She was strict but kind, and I'm forever indebted to her.
I competed in obedience and agility (with Rumble, our family's giant schnauzer) and other dogs and helped her (my mentors) clients prepare for same for the next 7 or so years.
I ended up through a series of circumstances back in Schutzhund for the next few years but not much had changed with respect to the methods of training and I just didn't have the stomach for it. I quit, with more emotional baggage than I care to elaborate on.
I ended up going back to school and became a chemical engineer, worked for Shell Canada for 11 years and as a private consultant, all the while spending all my evenings and weekends doing training for animal services and our humane society and working at a training facility teaching all levels of classes. I also took kinesiology and bio mechanics and got my fitness certifications (owned The Body Counsel, personal training and fitness consulting during that time....didn't love it..), which served me well later on with Structure and Action testing for dogs. I never dreamed that my engineering and kinesiology would transfer to my dog life, but that's exactly what Structure testing is based on.
I opened my first training business in 1991. I went back to school for animal behavior studies. It was slim pickens at the time and I ended up taking other realated biology stuff as well (primatology, ehology...).
I decided then to focus more on behavior than general training or sport/competition training and offered private in home training along with my multi level classes from then on.
I've attended courses/seminars in both Canada and the States. I think I've followed some of the more well known trainers through their changes in philosophies and have thoroughly enjoyed the ride. I added a few certifications along the way and have learned so much, but I'm still learning every day.
Today, I handle all the behavior training and foster home education (volunteer) for several dog rescue groups and volunteer as well for our wildlife rescue. I do quite a bit of bite investigation and aggression work as well as the normal behavior sessions on an in home private basis and I still teach classes for all levels.
I know I've forgotten some things but I'm zonked and have been typing way too much today.
When I am working with the show collies i cannot have any frustration in my voice at all. or they will completely stand still and do nothing.
Wow. I wish that worked for Lyric!
sometimes i find that they will do what i want the whole time if i am constantly baby talking them and telling them how good they are. it works lots better than a stern no. actually a stern no doesnt work at all. like i said, they will just freeze up and not do anything you ask of them
That's fine with me .. as far as I'm concerned, there wasn't anything debatable in my post anyway .. *LOL*
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
... just had my sugar-free chocolate ice cream, the closest I get to chocolate these days .. can't have sugar, darn it!
Oh, there certainly was to me. I just don't want to add another ten pages to this thread...and I'm tired of repeating myself.