Types of herding styles

Discussion in 'The Dog Breeds' started by AdrianneIsabel, Feb 15, 2013.

  1. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    I was reading about Beaucerons and found this:
    I also remember Old English Sheep dogs are drovers, yes?

    So... I am interested in what breeds herd, or did, in what styles and in addition to reading google I figured I would ask here as well.

    Do herding trials only ask for gathering techniques?
     
  2. BlackPuppy

    BlackPuppy Owned by Belgians

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    The German Shepherd, Belgian Shepherd and Dutch Shepherd area also traditionally "tenders". But that doesn't mean they can't be "drovers" also.

    In The Netherlands, they test the Belgian and Dutch Shepherds instinct as tenders. I was there to watch the testing process in 2011. I don't believe there are tests for that in the USA. But I can tell you I know plenty of Belgians who herd and have herding titles. A friend of mine keeps statistics on Belgians herding. http://www.belgiansdusoleil.com/herding_rankings.htm
     
  3. crazedACD

    crazedACD Active Member

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    I haven't gone too far into herding to answer your question, but I just wanted to comment that I was reading about beaucerons this morning as well, haha. I am amazed at the Journee du Beauceron...that is a fantastic program.
     
  4. ~WelshStump~

    ~WelshStump~ New Member

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    Honestly I'm so poorly at explaining it, so I will share with you this video of how a Beauceron herds. Essentially, they're a "living fence", which is what annoys me about AKC herding, even the pre-trial test is semi-set up more for what people think of as the "traditional" herding dog *cough-bordercollies*, as it asks for the dog at start to "gather" the flock to the handler even if it's only a short distance. The Beauceron was bred to run a fence line all day, keeping the sheep in, and predators out.

    http://youtu.be/M8TO7lcJu4Y


    On the flip side, the Pems are cattle drovers, herding the cattle in to market, in and out of pens, holding them, etc. I had a really good video of a Cardi droving cattle but it's going to take me a while to find it again.

    Here's the Cardi!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFnc3Uklj6I&feature=share&list=FL7DsQdcRUACUQyvixUfvPiw

    EDIT: give me a minute while I figure out how to embed the dang video!
    Screw the embed, just click the link!
     
  5. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    This applies to black mouths & houla which are used almost exclusively on rough stock like cattle and horses
    Heelers- work the back side of the herd in an arc, and impart motion to the whole herd by presence and nipping as needed
    Headers- use presence and position to push the front of the herd away from themselves and toward the direction the cowboy wants them to go
    Windmill- ability of a dog, usually a header, to quickly completely circle the herd and keep it tightly packed for movement, only applies to big herds not when a dog does it to a half dozen or even two dozen
    Catch- grabbing a hostile or flighty animal by the ear, cheek, nose, tail or testicles and essentially forcing it to stay in one spot
    Throw- grabbing a hostile or flighty animal by the ear, nose or cheek AND using momentum and strength to cause the animal to flip off its feet by pulling its head under its body as its running

    Most every cur dog isa healer or a header, windmilling, catching and throwing are signs of a superior or above average cur dog. A fair few cowboys keep bulldogs for catching and throwing because not enough cur dogs can do it well.
     
  6. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    Smooth collies also tend to be drovers. From what I've read, rough collies not so much. I find it fascinating that there's a difference in herding styles between the two.
     
  7. Keechak

    Keechak Aussie Obssessed

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    Aussies are all purpose, there are bloodlines of Aussies that are primarily driving, and holding dogs, there are lines that will gather. The lines my dogs come from are strong in driving instinct and will sometimes do a close gather tho nothing like a borer collie. My Aussies and many dogs of their bloodline like to work very close to the stock and have to be trained to back off.
     
  8. OutlineACDs

    OutlineACDs Crazy Dog!

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    Cattle dogs tend to be all purpose. Originally they were meant to be drovers, following the herd for miles and miles to get them to the stock yard. Once at the stock yard though, they were expected to be able to push them into corrals and through gates and generally perform farm tasks with wild cattle.

    A good cattle dog will go to head or heel.

    Herding trials focus almost exclusively on gathering at the lower levels, as you advance, there is more driving involved. The border collie trails are geared to border collies. They have super long outruns with again, a super long gather, and then penning, etc.

    Trials just don't test the herding breeds across the board for their original purpose. Corgis are expected to gather and move sheep, when they were developed to heel tough cattle. Each breed is different, but each herding trial is geared towards the same few skills. Most handlers will pick the venue that best suits their dog/breed. Any breed can compete in the big open sheep trials with the BC's but they rarely do because the scoring is based on what BC's are good at.
     
  9. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    Argh that's it, you guys have convinced me to contact the nearest herding facility. I'm desperate to get Keeva on stock.

    A question for those more experienced in herding: I know that corgis are drovers, as has been discussed, primarily of cattle. So they essentially bossed the cattle around and moved them up roads, to markets, and from pasture to pasture.

    Keeva definitely likes to boss around large, moving animals, however, she also shows quite a bit of eye - on other dogs, the cat, and even her toys. It's very noticeable and dramatic; she slams down into a crouch and then creeps up with a hard stare.

    Is this abnormal for a drover? Where does this fit in to different herding styles? (Where can I find a book or video that will answer these questions? LOL :p)
     
  10. Taqroy

    Taqroy Active Member

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  11. OutlineACDs

    OutlineACDs Crazy Dog!

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    This is why it's important to get dogs on stock. Just observing normal dog behaviors (even sighthounds and toy breeds will give eye and stalk) does not mean the dog will do any of those things on stock. I have two pretty hard-eyed dogs when it comes to toys and playing/chasing, but neither of them are stalky or hard-eyed on stock. My bitch is by far more loose eyed than my male is. And Zen isn't what I'd call hard-eyed. He's just more intense. Neither of them crouch or stalk on sheep though.
     
  12. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    Well no doubt, but I was curious as to the role of "eye" in various herding styles and in breeds outside of border collies, not necessarily my particular dog. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

    ETA: I am aware that all dogs can display the stop, crouch, and stalk sequence of behaviors, but having spent a lot of time watching a lot of dogs playing, it is absolutely more prevalent and stronger in herding types than non-herding types.
     
  13. Taqroy

    Taqroy Active Member

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    I just checked youtube for more cardi herding videos and...most of the corgis are super fat. And it made me kinda sad.

    Emily - is the level of bark in the video from WelshStump about the same as Keeva's? I sometimes wonder how Tipper measures up against "real" corgis. Lol.
     
  14. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Emily, for what it's worth all three dogs I have put on sheep (I know I'm an expert now) displayed very similar behaviors while playing off sheep.

    Given we (my boss and I) took basics with Tucker, I did basics with Backup, and Sloan was only HIC'd (which she failed due to clamping down on the goats neck) so I have never been up into anything complicated. I wonder if some of their play and initial instinct on stock is similar but you'll see a lot more when you start shaping technical behaviors?
     
  15. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    Yes, LOL. Though, I haven't had her on stock!!! So I don't know. Her parents are both crazy like she is but serious when working.

    But that's how she'll often bark when playing/bossing.
     
  16. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Corgis can stop barking?
     
  17. Taqroy

    Taqroy Active Member

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    Int-ah-resting. That video is pretty much exactly how Tipper behaves when she's....well doing anything that requires brain power actually. Only with more running back to smash into me and bark (which is more due to a lack of self control than anything else). I don't think Tipper really knows the meaning of the word "work" though - I'm interested to see how she does in agility, if I can ever get her into a foundation class.
     
  18. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    Interesting! That's kind of more what I was wondering.

    Also, re Sloan vs goat, I'm kind of worried about Blossom doing something similar LOL. I think she would calm down eventually and get into the groove but I also think predatory behavior and bites are pretty common in overexcited young dogs. I know when Aleron had Whimsy on stock the guy was pretty much like, "She's going to be amazing with training! But for now, I'll keep her on leash. Definitely on leash for now." :rofl1: I don't want her to nom anybody's stock and then have to pay for the vet. Keeva is really too small to do much damage though.
     
  19. Taqroy

    Taqroy Active Member

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    Did Sloan permanently injure the goat? When we took the girls to be instinct tested the guy running it told us about a GSD who opened one of his sheep up all along the side. And one of the ACD mixes running that day pulled out a whole big chunk of wool - if that sheep weren't so fluffy he would of done some damage.
     
  20. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Lucky for everyone involved the goat was heavily coated. Sloan grabbed, hung, the goat ran smack into a fence wall and drug Sloan and the shepherd ran up to smack her with a water bottle on the end of a PVC pipe, guess what that feels and sounds like to a schutzhund dog? Needless to say she stuck with the goat until Denis grabbed her and she released immediately when he did.

    Backup had gone first and did so well I think Sloan (a puppy at the time) caught everyone off guard, I even have a video of it until the ramming of the fence where I dropped my camera and ran into the arena. The shepherd and crew hosting the HICs said, "I hate to tell you this but unfortunately I can't pass her this time." We just started laughing, ummm no ****? lol They did follow telling us many of the best stock dogs start this way but need a heavier level of control. Denis has no interest in trying again, she has a crazy high prey drive and that additionally is why we pulled her from Flyball, you can only watch your dog hunt down and tackle border collies so many times before you decide maybe they're better suited for individual sports.

    Disclaimer, humorously Sloan is actually very dog friendly. :)
     

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