Two Dogs...big dilemma!
- Thread starter Emeraulde
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I think this article could really help you http://k9deb.com/socialis.htm
Thank you for that article. I actually already had it bookmarked, and it is wonderful information. I've hesitated to use it because although Sally does the "King of the Castle" type behavior, she has NEVER been aggressive toward any humans. Only with Spike, so I was primarily seeking solutions to the aggressiveness first. That's kind of a separate issue at the moment from the dog vs. dog aggression thing. But, I definately AM the doting woman...and learned alot about how I've contributed to her not treating me as a leader. 
I have the same problem with my dogs and they don't think that they have to listen to my husband. Our dog Mack tries to drag him all over the place when he takes him out on his leash, while he does pull a little when I have him if I tell him to heel he will slow down. And none of our dogs EVER do what he says. I have tried having him help in the obedience training and now my husband helps out more with the dogs and that is helping...some. I don't know what you could do about the kennel and your dog digging. Maybe you could try a cement bottom with an enclosed top. That way she couldn't jump or dog out. I know my dog was purposely bred and he's a mix. He's a pitbull and american bulldog. I bought him from a breeder who breeds pitbulls. They bred the two dogs because they liked both the breeds and thought they would go good together and they were right because Mack is SUCH a wonderful and loving dog. It's the same way with people nowadays breeding every breed under the sun with the poodle. Aren't they mutts or are they purebreeds just because they were bred with poodles? I don't think that your dogs would have been taking away homes from "good dogs" because if you were as committed as you seem to be the lifetime guarantee that you offer would ensure that the puppies didn't end up in shelters. And seeing as the female only had the one puppy then no harm has done because no homes were taken away.
Hm...
I'm kinda confused.
Is it that the female is dog-aggressive towards your puppy only? Or others as well?
Because if you'd like, I could PM you on how to fix that.
Dog-aggressiveness in general. And I agree with some of the others, it would be best if you sprayed her. That may take some of the aggressiveness away.
Good luck.
I'm kinda confused.
Is it that the female is dog-aggressive towards your puppy only? Or others as well?
Because if you'd like, I could PM you on how to fix that.
Dog-aggressiveness in general. And I agree with some of the others, it would be best if you sprayed her. That may take some of the aggressiveness away.
Good luck.
M
Emeraulde.......
You ask if people are always so hostile to newcomers with problems. I think the problem is the attitude toward people who know absolutely NOTHING about canine behavior, but have become "instant experts" thru extensive research. Aggressive dogs as you have described don't need neutering--they need to be euthanized. You are not equipped to deal with them, and they are a danger to every one in your neighborhood.....not just their pets.
Your breeding of the aggressive female---for no good reason shows a total lack of comprehension of the problem involved. There are just some people who should never own dogs.......especially dogs with the potential of being deadly. You have proven via your own words that you fit into this category.
I know this sounds rude and harsh, but when you see someone playing with a loaded gun, you don't have time for being P.C., And mincing your words.
You bred two mutts........one of which was dangerously aggressive. You had no concept that bitches become territorial and fight just as badly as any male---you do not have the knowledge necessary to be a trustworthy dog owner.
Your two mutts could have produced up to 13 puppies.........a nice burden to dump on the people in your county. And what if they had turned out deadly like their mother, and attacked the people to whom you sold or gave them? Have you read about that ignorant woman who locked her 12 year old son in the basement so he couldn't get near her "aggressive" pit bull??????? Kid got out of basement, and dog ate him UP and killed him.
You are playing with danger and are too ignorant (naïve) to realize the danger you are courting. You better hope your neighbors don't sue you for emotional damages!!!
Please get rid of this dog. BEFORE Spike accidently gets tangled up in her tether, and she kills HIM!!!!!!
Carole....PS----I hope you get in contact with some knowledgeable people who know what they are talking about! Your research sources leave a whole lot to be desired!!!
You ask if people are always so hostile to newcomers with problems. I think the problem is the attitude toward people who know absolutely NOTHING about canine behavior, but have become "instant experts" thru extensive research. Aggressive dogs as you have described don't need neutering--they need to be euthanized. You are not equipped to deal with them, and they are a danger to every one in your neighborhood.....not just their pets.
Your breeding of the aggressive female---for no good reason shows a total lack of comprehension of the problem involved. There are just some people who should never own dogs.......especially dogs with the potential of being deadly. You have proven via your own words that you fit into this category.
I know this sounds rude and harsh, but when you see someone playing with a loaded gun, you don't have time for being P.C., And mincing your words.
You bred two mutts........one of which was dangerously aggressive. You had no concept that bitches become territorial and fight just as badly as any male---you do not have the knowledge necessary to be a trustworthy dog owner.
Your two mutts could have produced up to 13 puppies.........a nice burden to dump on the people in your county. And what if they had turned out deadly like their mother, and attacked the people to whom you sold or gave them? Have you read about that ignorant woman who locked her 12 year old son in the basement so he couldn't get near her "aggressive" pit bull??????? Kid got out of basement, and dog ate him UP and killed him.
You are playing with danger and are too ignorant (naïve) to realize the danger you are courting. You better hope your neighbors don't sue you for emotional damages!!!
Please get rid of this dog. BEFORE Spike accidently gets tangled up in her tether, and she kills HIM!!!!!!
Carole....PS----I hope you get in contact with some knowledgeable people who know what they are talking about! Your research sources leave a whole lot to be desired!!!
I am apalled! Did you even READ this thread????? Clearly you know SO much being you've posted here a whopping THREE times.
We allowed our dog to breed LONG before there was EVER any signs of aggressiveness. She was a bird dog. She liked birds. We had no idea she would go after the small dogs like she did. After that incident, the pup was already born and we did the responsible thing. Not once was she EVER a danger to any humans. And the instant we realized she was a danger to anything at all, she was euthanized. You will not make me feel like a bad pet owner because I did what was right, and it was gut-wrenching. Shame on you for dishonoring her memory.
As far as me not knowing about territory issues and pack politics, again, I would say you have not read this thread very well. Clearly you think my vet, several other vets in my area, and one of the top dog behavioralists in the country are idiots, or perhaps that you know more, because I'm taking their advice, not yours. Silly me. I never claimed to be an expert, I simply trust my vet and highly trained consultant more than I would a message board troller.
I realize that I am long-winded, and perhaps information gets lost in my posts. Here is a run-down:
1. Sally and Spike...female and male, neither fixed. They have started to fight recently. Sally is 1 year old, Spike about 9 mos old.
2. Sally doesn't listen to me very well, but I know how to handle that one.
3. We had an incident with Sally's mother last year a few months after she was born. The mother, have never been aggressive, broke thru the neighbor's fence and killed the small dogs next door one night. We had her put down and made amends to the neighbors. For this reason, I am watching Sally carefully and want to make sure she is NOTHING like her mother.
OK??
We allowed our dog to breed LONG before there was EVER any signs of aggressiveness. She was a bird dog. She liked birds. We had no idea she would go after the small dogs like she did. After that incident, the pup was already born and we did the responsible thing. Not once was she EVER a danger to any humans. And the instant we realized she was a danger to anything at all, she was euthanized. You will not make me feel like a bad pet owner because I did what was right, and it was gut-wrenching. Shame on you for dishonoring her memory.
As far as me not knowing about territory issues and pack politics, again, I would say you have not read this thread very well. Clearly you think my vet, several other vets in my area, and one of the top dog behavioralists in the country are idiots, or perhaps that you know more, because I'm taking their advice, not yours. Silly me. I never claimed to be an expert, I simply trust my vet and highly trained consultant more than I would a message board troller.
I realize that I am long-winded, and perhaps information gets lost in my posts. Here is a run-down:
1. Sally and Spike...female and male, neither fixed. They have started to fight recently. Sally is 1 year old, Spike about 9 mos old.
2. Sally doesn't listen to me very well, but I know how to handle that one.
3. We had an incident with Sally's mother last year a few months after she was born. The mother, have never been aggressive, broke thru the neighbor's fence and killed the small dogs next door one night. We had her put down and made amends to the neighbors. For this reason, I am watching Sally carefully and want to make sure she is NOTHING like her mother.
OK??
Manchesters, that was terribly rude.
The fact that he came on an internet forum looking for help, researched like crazy, and even euthanized his dog before it could become even more of a threat shows the he's a responsible dog owner and is willing to do what is necessary for the protection of his dogs and everyone else around the.
The fact that he came on an internet forum looking for help, researched like crazy, and even euthanized his dog before it could become even more of a threat shows the he's a responsible dog owner and is willing to do what is necessary for the protection of his dogs and everyone else around the.
M
Rudeness.....
Big Dog......there are times when being politically correct just does not do the job. In the first place, momma dog should not have been bred until AT LEAST two years of age, and after extensive testing (blood, heart, hips, eyes). Just how old was the momma dog when she was bred? On her first heat, most likely. And how often will Sally be nailed by Spike? I seem to remember a comment about one dog being to short to breed the female????????????????????? HUH????? How about the daschhund that impregnated a St. Bernard female????? After all, ALL female dogs have to lay down once in a while!!!
Anyway, Sally should most definitely be spayed. And yes, my extensive experience IS much more to be relied upon than the opinions of vets and so called behaviorists who have no earthly clue what they are talking about. Unless a "vet" is also a reputable show breeder, they know nothing other than what they have read in books. Over the years I have had contact with thousands of people, not just a handful. And with those who had every breed known.
And yes, I read the thread thoroughly, in spite of being disgusted by what I was reading. People can be forgiven for not knowing about an issue.......maybe. But in this day and age of the internet, there is little excuse for breeding mongrels and making up excuses for not spaying or neutering pet dogs. The fact that there was no consideration of the fact that breeding Sally's mother could have produced as many as 13 or more puppies (unless she was only 6 months or so when bred), and that there was no testing INCLUDING temperament testing shows that this person does not need to be messing around with dogs that have not been neutered. Being a breeder involves responsibility, education, and dedication. NOT just throwing two dogs together to "do it".
The number of posts made to a pet newsgroup in no way reflects upon the knowledge of the poster. My opinions are based upon 30+ years of experience ---not just my own, but that of thousands of others I have met and known about over those years. I have bred champions, and top producers, so I KNOW what being a breeder involves. The main ingredient is RESPONSIBILITY.......to dogs, and to potential puppy owners.
I have voiced my opinion, and so shall be wise and drop the issue. I am sure there are many in agreement with me who just do not wish to become embroiled in a go-round of (trying to think of P.C. Correct word besides idiocy or stupidity) "whatever". It is a sheer waste of time and effort. I just hope that the board will be kept abreast of the situation, and told when Spike gets eaten up or killed, and when Sally gets "knocked up" by either Spike or some mutt that jumps over the fence and gets to her!! I see a bleak future for both these dogs.
Carole E.
Big Dog......there are times when being politically correct just does not do the job. In the first place, momma dog should not have been bred until AT LEAST two years of age, and after extensive testing (blood, heart, hips, eyes). Just how old was the momma dog when she was bred? On her first heat, most likely. And how often will Sally be nailed by Spike? I seem to remember a comment about one dog being to short to breed the female????????????????????? HUH????? How about the daschhund that impregnated a St. Bernard female????? After all, ALL female dogs have to lay down once in a while!!!
Anyway, Sally should most definitely be spayed. And yes, my extensive experience IS much more to be relied upon than the opinions of vets and so called behaviorists who have no earthly clue what they are talking about. Unless a "vet" is also a reputable show breeder, they know nothing other than what they have read in books. Over the years I have had contact with thousands of people, not just a handful. And with those who had every breed known.
And yes, I read the thread thoroughly, in spite of being disgusted by what I was reading. People can be forgiven for not knowing about an issue.......maybe. But in this day and age of the internet, there is little excuse for breeding mongrels and making up excuses for not spaying or neutering pet dogs. The fact that there was no consideration of the fact that breeding Sally's mother could have produced as many as 13 or more puppies (unless she was only 6 months or so when bred), and that there was no testing INCLUDING temperament testing shows that this person does not need to be messing around with dogs that have not been neutered. Being a breeder involves responsibility, education, and dedication. NOT just throwing two dogs together to "do it".
The number of posts made to a pet newsgroup in no way reflects upon the knowledge of the poster. My opinions are based upon 30+ years of experience ---not just my own, but that of thousands of others I have met and known about over those years. I have bred champions, and top producers, so I KNOW what being a breeder involves. The main ingredient is RESPONSIBILITY.......to dogs, and to potential puppy owners.
I have voiced my opinion, and so shall be wise and drop the issue. I am sure there are many in agreement with me who just do not wish to become embroiled in a go-round of (trying to think of P.C. Correct word besides idiocy or stupidity) "whatever". It is a sheer waste of time and effort. I just hope that the board will be kept abreast of the situation, and told when Spike gets eaten up or killed, and when Sally gets "knocked up" by either Spike or some mutt that jumps over the fence and gets to her!! I see a bleak future for both these dogs.
Carole E.
While some of us may agree with at least some of what you've said Carole the only way that we can possibly help the dogs that we hear about is if the owner continues to post. That is why I don't post my strong feelings on this subject. It's not because of any need to be polite or PC.
We've had many people join this forum who were abrasive, stubborn... but those that have stuck around have actually showed us another side and I think that once they've gotten to know us and can see we can back up our opinions they have confidence in what we have to say.
I think that's something we have to keep in mind with all new posters who join us with stories that we don't really like to hear. You never know what's going to happen but it's best to give the benefit of the doubt that this situation can change - at least for the dogs sake.
We've had many people join this forum who were abrasive, stubborn... but those that have stuck around have actually showed us another side and I think that once they've gotten to know us and can see we can back up our opinions they have confidence in what we have to say.
I think that's something we have to keep in mind with all new posters who join us with stories that we don't really like to hear. You never know what's going to happen but it's best to give the benefit of the doubt that this situation can change - at least for the dogs sake.
M
You Are Right Saje
I should not really even have posted to this thread. I am in a bit of pain from yanked muscles thanks to my lawn mower, and I have a dog who is dying from cancer. I need to take her in to be put to sleep, but she is a fighter and continues to rally on a daily basis. So my frame of mind is not anywhere near as kindly as it might otherwise be.
Also, I have become less patient with knotheadiness as I have grown older. I guess in truth, I am a curmudgeon. Just an old grouch, getting grouchier as I grow older.
But it is so hard when reading some things to not respond in a less than "kind" manner. Where is the kindness for the dogs that are housed in shelters, terrified, cold and starving, and then destroyed? To me the subject in discussion is not only NOT neutering of dogs, but the allowing of these same dogs to reproduce. That is a very hard subject. I shall just not bother getting involved in such matters in the future. My feelings on the subject have been expressed. That is sufficient. Too much so, perhaps!
Carole
I should not really even have posted to this thread. I am in a bit of pain from yanked muscles thanks to my lawn mower, and I have a dog who is dying from cancer. I need to take her in to be put to sleep, but she is a fighter and continues to rally on a daily basis. So my frame of mind is not anywhere near as kindly as it might otherwise be.
Also, I have become less patient with knotheadiness as I have grown older. I guess in truth, I am a curmudgeon. Just an old grouch, getting grouchier as I grow older.
But it is so hard when reading some things to not respond in a less than "kind" manner. Where is the kindness for the dogs that are housed in shelters, terrified, cold and starving, and then destroyed? To me the subject in discussion is not only NOT neutering of dogs, but the allowing of these same dogs to reproduce. That is a very hard subject. I shall just not bother getting involved in such matters in the future. My feelings on the subject have been expressed. That is sufficient. Too much so, perhaps!
Carole
I got my male puppy when my female dog was 2 yrs old. She loved him as a puppy, but practically the moment he hit 6 mos. old...dominance issues became obvious. (she is spayed and just for the record, spaying doesn't produce a more aggressive female at all) Once my male was neutered (had to wait til he was 7 mos. per the vet) all issues were gone....he didn't continue to 'challenge' her position. She remains the boss, he doesn't ever question it.......life is peaceful and calm. They don't fight at all, but I KNOW if he wouldn't have been neutered...I would have had BIG problems. I believe you intend on getting the male neutered? I really think that will help. I don't mean to sound insensitive......but get you gal spayed. All those 'issues' Renee mentioned when they go into season will be gone....she really will be a much calmer gal.
By a dog like that I mean one with a problem,whos parents have a problem. You can't come on here and say you have a problem but then you don't. The dog is not a purebred so fix it. I agree with the other poster that you dog owning skills are kind of lacking. I don't think your rebuttal post cleared things up to well eitheir. I'm not expecting you to feel bad because then you would have already fixed your dog and realized it should be an only dog if for no other fact than her parents were like that. You should feel bad about what happened. If you didn't there is a problem.Accept responcibility,you did something wrong. And you think after all of that with her mom you would have fixed her. Untill the dogs are both fixed I will think of you as an irresponcible dog owner. Neitheir of them are show dogs and they obviously don't have great temperments to pass on. Stop creating the problem. If the dogs are fighting you are not keeping them apart so what is keeping them from breeding?! I don't know how a behaviorist would tell you this is ok. Hes definately not that great of one!
Manchesters,
I'm in total agreement with you. I'm old too. LOL I hope you'll stay on this board. I need you. I don't want to be one of the very few, old, outspoken people here. I think you'd be a real asset to this forum with your experience and knowlege. It does get frusterating when we see mongrels being reproduced, especially ones with poor temperaments.
There are soooo many millions of dogs languishing in shelters....in little concrete stalls with very little love and attention. There they sit all day, every day being miserably lonely. Some get adopted, but vastly more do not. When people decide to get a dog and don't need a pure bred, they may look at a shelter. But if the neighbor down the road has a litter or there's a litter in front of the supermarket to be given away, how much easier is that for someone in the market for a mixed breed dog? So those dogs are taking the place that the dogs in shelters could have. I too, think it is close to a crime to be producing more mixed breed pups. And why are these dogs so aggressive, one after the next? That baffles me. At any rate, they need to be managed or euthanized IMO.
But I agree with Sage too, that if we're careful, (not something I'm good at) and try explaining the best we can our point, people will tend to stay here and may get an understanding of where we're coming from. Some get super defensive and you can't get through. Some we've had do have open minds, take in what we're saying and get on the same page.
So, I hope both of you stay with us. This is a place for people who LOVE dogs and LOVE to talk dogs. I'm obsessed. Without this board and another couple, I'd drive everyone I know away with my dog talk. So I thank my lucky stars for you all.
I'm in total agreement with you. I'm old too. LOL I hope you'll stay on this board. I need you. I don't want to be one of the very few, old, outspoken people here. I think you'd be a real asset to this forum with your experience and knowlege. It does get frusterating when we see mongrels being reproduced, especially ones with poor temperaments.
There are soooo many millions of dogs languishing in shelters....in little concrete stalls with very little love and attention. There they sit all day, every day being miserably lonely. Some get adopted, but vastly more do not. When people decide to get a dog and don't need a pure bred, they may look at a shelter. But if the neighbor down the road has a litter or there's a litter in front of the supermarket to be given away, how much easier is that for someone in the market for a mixed breed dog? So those dogs are taking the place that the dogs in shelters could have. I too, think it is close to a crime to be producing more mixed breed pups. And why are these dogs so aggressive, one after the next? That baffles me. At any rate, they need to be managed or euthanized IMO.
But I agree with Sage too, that if we're careful, (not something I'm good at) and try explaining the best we can our point, people will tend to stay here and may get an understanding of where we're coming from. Some get super defensive and you can't get through. Some we've had do have open minds, take in what we're saying and get on the same page.
So, I hope both of you stay with us. This is a place for people who LOVE dogs and LOVE to talk dogs. I'm obsessed. Without this board and another couple, I'd drive everyone I know away with my dog talk. So I thank my lucky stars for you all.
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