Training a longer hold?

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by DJEtzel, Feb 17, 2013.

  1. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yeah, I'm failing to understand how this would work for teaching a longer hold. I could see this effectively training the dog to spit the dumbbell out. Not hold it as they should.

    But, I'm also not out to reinvent the wheel. I prefer Hunting Retriever methods because they work and work well.. People hear the word force in relation to retrieve and wig out. I have never seen a hunting retriever lose hold of something when they're trained with a good force fetch system.
     
  2. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    8,893
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 Pit bulls and 2 Malinois, We like to stay busy.
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Home Page:
    I have had a lot of people say they prefer the hunting force methods because it doesn't risk a high value for a dumbbell. Having a dog that naturally thinks the dumbbell is awesome and doesn't want to trade it for a tug... I can see their point.

    fwiw, I see the difference in the reward pertaining to the discussion.
     
  3. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    17,761
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    Not enough.
    Location:
    Wales
    I clicked as soon as he put his mouth on the object, and built it up from there. We've had to work a lot on retrieve. He's only just starting to "get" it now.

    But yes, clicked for mouth on object, to in mouth, to holding in mouth.

    Bodgi was easy... Put object it mouth, ask to stay. Voila lol. She's a good girl though, and would be useless for a retrieve and hold as she throws things at you to throw again!
     
  4. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Even with Force Fetch. Judge's dumbbell is high high value for him.
     
  5. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    8,893
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 Pit bulls and 2 Malinois, We like to stay busy.
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Home Page:
    High value or problematic high value?
     
  6. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    It borders on problematic high value. Not quite there but millimeters away from being there. He gets "OMG, DUMBBELL!! CAN'T CONTROL MYSELF" for a few seconds before being reminded to settle, his settle isn't very settled but more on the verge of GO!. We work through it, but it sucks.

    LoLa was started with Force Fetch and I need to work on it better. The retriever lady I train with, calls it a "stay for the mouth". You start with your finger in their mouth, then move on to an object and once they are solid on holding and taking the object, then you heel with the object. Then after that you start very short retrieves working up to the whole retrieve.
     
  7. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    8,893
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 Pit bulls and 2 Malinois, We like to stay busy.
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Home Page:
    Backups issue is a lock jawed, sharp shaking, shyed head, and circling possession. Food or tug trade? Nope, dumbbell! Getting a tight turn on the pick up and a give has been a challenge for him.

    It was funny though the first time someone psyched me out about convincing dogs to get dumbbells and how much work it is so I asked if I could toss it once just to try and Backup flew over grabbed it and said hahhhhhhhhh mine! It's been a "no it's mine." Battle since then.

    He's not in love with metal but I swear he'll grab anything with joy. It's a different world of learning from Arnold who never wants anything in his mouth.
     
  8. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0

    Judge had that issue when we first started. Honestly, a little compulsion and then later a tug reward fixed it. Judge can be pretty possessive still but a gentle reminder with the e-collar fixes it pretty quickly.

    LoLa only likes picking up things she wants too. The Force Fetch has worked well for her, I went to that method with her after I tried the clicker method and got no where but a dog that LOVES to spit the dumbbell out everytime she sees a clicker.

    Thankfully, I have actually gotten lucky and got dogs that have all had semi natural retrieves.
     
  9. stardogs

    stardogs Behavior Nerd

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,925
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 dogs, 1 cat
    Location:
    NC
    Home Page:
    Kes has been simple: did some for fun clicked retrieve stuff, introduced a dowel more formally, and then for the heck of it, threw a dumbbell. He ran out, picked it up cleanly on the run, and turned back nicely. He doesn't have the possession, but he just loves the game. All we really have had to work on is positions with the 'bell in his mouth.

    I haven't introduced Aeri to the concept, but I suspect she'll be more like Backup since she is a more possessive dog. Thankfully she's been working on bringing items back to me vs taking off with them, so it may be easier than I expect.

    I'm attending Clicker Expo in a few weeks and Kes and I have a working spot in the retrieve lab - I can't wait!
     
  10. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    17,761
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    Not enough.
    Location:
    Wales
    What do people use as their retrieval cue word? I've never settled for one I like so tend to use go get it, and bring it here. Which is messy. I don't like 'fetch'.
     
  11. SpringerLover

    SpringerLover Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    3,415
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    fiver
    Location:
    B-ville
    Home Page:
    Field people use the dog's name as a release cue. I used "go" for Bailey (and "away" for go-outs).
     
  12. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,381
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    7
    Location:
    Midwest
    for competition I use "bring" around the house and yard I just say "get it"
     
  13. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    8,893
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 Pit bulls and 2 Malinois, We like to stay busy.
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Home Page:
    Same here :)
     
  14. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2009
    Messages:
    6,215
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yeah for Field it's required you use their name but for agility I use their name as a head-check which are kind of opposite behaviors (charge away vs. check in) so I use Mira's nickname (Cheese) for field/formal retrieve and her normal call name (Mira) for agility and life.

    For future dogs I will probably use an element of their registered name for field instead of a nickname, just to make for less explaining.

    For Web and Kim I use "get it" for a formal retrieve, and "bring it" around the house.
     
  15. Beanie

    Beanie Clicker Cult Coordinator

    Joined:
    May 17, 2006
    Messages:
    14,011
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Illinois
    Home Page:
    I submit that for future dogs you should ALWAYS use "Cheese!" as their formal retrieve word.
     
  16. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2008
    Messages:
    9,419
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2
    Location:
    Georgia
    hahaha, I'm sensing a trend. This is what I use as well.
     
  17. stardogs

    stardogs Behavior Nerd

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,925
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 dogs, 1 cat
    Location:
    NC
    Home Page:
    Me, too! Though I may be changing "get it" as it's also our marker for "reward away from me", which is often a bite on the helper...
     
  18. Donna Hill

    Donna Hill New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2013
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2
    Location:
    Nanaimo, BC Canada
    Home Page:
    It helps to adjust your definition of a 'hold'.
    The dog is holding when he lifts an object off the ground.
    The dog is doing a hold when she is carry it a distance.
    The dog is doing a hold when she turns around with the object in her mouth.
    By adding distance, you are adding duration, the dog just doesn't know it.
    When the dog tugs an object, she is doing a hold.

    So some simple ideas:
    Cue a 'stay' once the dog has the object in her mouth. Fade the stay cue once she is holding for a few seconds.

    Use a tug to train a hold. Fade the tug.

    Get her to do two grabs for one. That is, use surfing the extinction burst. The dog will grab quickly the first time, the slightly longer the second. Repeat until the second hold is longer and longer an the dog blend the first grab with the second. This method requires good timing with the clicker. Once you get past 2 seconds, most dogs 'get it' using this approach. http://www.woofandwordpress.com/targetandretrieve.pdf

    Next train in different positions so the dog truly 'gets' it. Train many different objects.

    My guess is that you may be asking for too much duration too quickly. Are you using one second increments?
    Check out my service dog retrieve videos. See them in the list on the link below my name.
     
  19. DJEtzel

    DJEtzel New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    3,266
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Kalamazoo, MI
    I started working on Frag with RL today and he is starting to pick it up great. We did a short session, I saw progress, and stopped, but I'm hoping to pick it back up tonight and not be disappointed.
     

Share This Page