This has gone too far... (Malinois!)
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This is something I've been wondering a while, honestly. I'm the first to admit that I don't have very much experience in person with Mals and as most know, Simi is my first working bred GSD. So I've never really been sure of the difference. Simi's pretty crazy, but others make their Mals seem so much more crazy. I guess I'll never really know until I own a Mal or at least interact with one more one on one. What I really like about the Mals vs. GSDs is the size. I like smaller, more slight dogs. I like the light agile looking dogs. I haven't done enough research to know any huge differences that I should be expecting.
So as a preface to all of my Mal want, keep in mind that I am NO WHERE near considering a Mal pup. And even when I do get one, chances are I'll adopt an older puppy or get an older dog from a breeder. But there will be a LOT of research done before I even start seriously considering.
So as a preface to all of my Mal want, keep in mind that I am NO WHERE near considering a Mal pup. And even when I do get one, chances are I'll adopt an older puppy or get an older dog from a breeder. But there will be a LOT of research done before I even start seriously considering.
Fostering is a good place to start, or loaning. We borrowed a mal then took in another before we decided to buy Sloan. Even when we got Sloan I was convinced I wanted a borderstaffy but they're pretty addictive and frankly if they're as awesome as Sloan they're hard to say no to. I should have gotten her brother like I was offered but then I wouldn't know the sheer weirdness of owning a lemur so.... lol
My girlfriend has a super nice gsd and I see a lot of similarities with him and our Malinois. He's rough, rowdy, rude, bites, barks, spins, turns off you, punches you, has trouble focusing because he's so excited, hits like a freight train, gives her everything she could want by way of drive and then some but he does lack some of the level headed serious maturity that she desires, he'll find that in time but for now I have someone to commiserate with.
I love her gsd, I would totally take him in a heart beat.
My girlfriend has a super nice gsd and I see a lot of similarities with him and our Malinois. He's rough, rowdy, rude, bites, barks, spins, turns off you, punches you, has trouble focusing because he's so excited, hits like a freight train, gives her everything she could want by way of drive and then some but he does lack some of the level headed serious maturity that she desires, he'll find that in time but for now I have someone to commiserate with.
I love her gsd, I would totally take him in a heart beat.
Great pics everyone!
There is NOT much difference between a good working line GSD and a malinois. Some are a bit more reactive, which is what is being discussed in previous threads. Reactive is, Act First, think about it later. They are bonded to you like glue, for better or worse, until death do you part. Some days, it feels like YOU might get offed first.
This is not a dog for everyone. You must CONSTANTLY be on alert when in public, as most of the things idiot people try to do to dogs they don't know will result in your Malinois taking offense.
I was having a discussion with another IPO trainer, about how Malinois don't seem to care about doing bitework on their owners. GSDs, DO. It's because the Mal is willing to say, "Hey, I LOVE you, but WOO HOO GAME ON!!!" This part, alone, can make them scary to own.
There is NOT much difference between a good working line GSD and a malinois. Some are a bit more reactive, which is what is being discussed in previous threads. Reactive is, Act First, think about it later. They are bonded to you like glue, for better or worse, until death do you part. Some days, it feels like YOU might get offed first.
This is not a dog for everyone. You must CONSTANTLY be on alert when in public, as most of the things idiot people try to do to dogs they don't know will result in your Malinois taking offense.
I was having a discussion with another IPO trainer, about how Malinois don't seem to care about doing bitework on their owners. GSDs, DO. It's because the Mal is willing to say, "Hey, I LOVE you, but WOO HOO GAME ON!!!" This part, alone, can make them scary to own.
Nico's nickname is "Mellow-ois", which means he is mellow, for a MALINOIS. Pretty much it just means that he is semi mellow in the house. He still does everything that has been listed off by everyone else. He bites and punches when the toy isn't there fast enough. Or dinner. If there is something in my pocket, he will try to grab it through my pants. I thought Saga was a velcro dog, but I LITERALLY cannot walk more than two feet without him being up my a$$. He really is a creepy stalker. He bites me out of love...if we are just cuddling on the couch, he flea bites me. He is OBSESSED with balls and frisbees. If he sees one while we are walking, he will try to drag me to it. And scream when he realizes we can't get to it. He is in the 40s, weightwise and he does manage to almost drag me to THE PRECIOUS because he wants is SO BADLY.
He is drivey, crazy, clingy and bitey and I am having SO MUCH FUN with this dog it isn't even funny.
He is drivey, crazy, clingy and bitey and I am having SO MUCH FUN with this dog it isn't even funny.
:lol-sign: Clearly there are differences in opinion on what is a "good GSD". Or at least, what one might consider a good/ideal dog for them (a slightly insane dog) and what others would consider to be a good example of its respective breed (a well balanced, thinking dog with good use of intelligent judgement, in my opinion).
Re-reading the above, I realize it sounds completely snarky - which I don't mean to be. I'm just wincing when I imagine a good, solid German Shepherd Dog being the image of a stereotypical Malinois. Mostly because I keep glancing at my legs and arms and imagining bite marks all over them. That would not be welcome in the least
If a good GSD is the same as a Malinois, then I'm not sure why anyone would want a GSD anymore. I like both breeds for different reasons, but maybe because of my own priorities and and preferences when I look into a breed or a new dog. I understand it's a different perspective for others, especially those looking for dedicated sport or working dogs.
Re-reading the above, I realize it sounds completely snarky - which I don't mean to be. I'm just wincing when I imagine a good, solid German Shepherd Dog being the image of a stereotypical Malinois. Mostly because I keep glancing at my legs and arms and imagining bite marks all over them. That would not be welcome in the least
If a good GSD is the same as a Malinois, then I'm not sure why anyone would want a GSD anymore. I like both breeds for different reasons, but maybe because of my own priorities and and preferences when I look into a breed or a new dog. I understand it's a different perspective for others, especially those looking for dedicated sport or working dogs.
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I just wanna say I have decoyed Judge and he doesn't care as long as he is getting to "play ". He is a lot like a Mal in my opinion. I have a ton of the same "issues " with him that many mal owners have with their dogs.
It takes a special kind of crazy to own a high drive dog bur especially a working Mal or GSD.
It takes a special kind of crazy to own a high drive dog bur especially a working Mal or GSD.
Mostly because I keep glancing at my legs and arms and imagining bite marks all over them. That would not be welcome in the least
If a good GSD is the same as a Malinois, then I'm not sure why anyone would want a GSD anymore.
If a good GSD is the same as a Malinois, then I'm not sure why anyone would want a GSD anymore.
I guess you are right, we have a very different idea of what a GSD should be.
They are not the same dogs. But managing high drive is managing high drive. Nerve, however, is another factor all together.
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I think we definitely have a difference of opinion on what a GSD should be. The GSDs working as K9s and even dome sport dogs tend to be more Mal like IMHO.
I do feel that GSDs *tend* to have better nerves than the Mals I have met for the most part...however.....Mals with good nerves do exist...I have met a few.
I do feel that GSDs *tend* to have better nerves than the Mals I have met for the most part...however.....Mals with good nerves do exist...I have met a few.
"Liking" this post, too, especially the last part. That's why I tried to specify "a good GSD imo" and just a general idea of "a Good Dog". I think it's one thing to talk about owning and managing a high drive dog, and another to refer to dogs as good representatives of their breed, while holding them up to the expectations of a separate breed (albeit one bred for similar purposes).
I don't mind scraping knuckles on teeth and having a dog scratch me up with dewclaws if he gets into a game of tug. I don't blink an eye at that. I just don't enjoy a dog that will redirect, sometimes without discrimination, nearly as much. Well, I know that no one enjoys it but I don't think that's what a German Shepherd should be, and to take it up a step, I think that's an issue in itself.
I don't mind scraping knuckles on teeth and having a dog scratch me up with dewclaws if he gets into a game of tug. I don't blink an eye at that. I just don't enjoy a dog that will redirect, sometimes without discrimination, nearly as much. Well, I know that no one enjoys it but I don't think that's what a German Shepherd should be, and to take it up a step, I think that's an issue in itself.
Double like ^
Most of the working line GSD's I've met have had some similar crazy drive. I am totally in love with the little west german/czech line girl that comes out to training.
You know its really about what dogs is the right fit at the particular time when I'm ready. I'd totally take a GSD, or a Mal, or a Dutchie and be happy so long as it was the right working buddy for me. I do like the lighter bone and more upright build of the Mals and Dutchies better and living with a plushie has made me want an easy care coat next time. :lol: Though I feel Lily's coat is very easy care, so a normally coated GSD wouldn't bug me. Much.
All these pics are adorable, keep em' coming!
I like the war stories too! I'm glad when owners go out of their way to explain to strangers on the street why their breed isn't naturally well behaved. Thats uh, exactly how I ended up finally taking Scout. My friend's mom liked Lily, so went and got this second hand dog despite me warning her that Lily is so well behaved because she's mentally and physically worked hard every day.... yeah that went well!
Most of the working line GSD's I've met have had some similar crazy drive. I am totally in love with the little west german/czech line girl that comes out to training.
You know its really about what dogs is the right fit at the particular time when I'm ready. I'd totally take a GSD, or a Mal, or a Dutchie and be happy so long as it was the right working buddy for me. I do like the lighter bone and more upright build of the Mals and Dutchies better and living with a plushie has made me want an easy care coat next time. :lol: Though I feel Lily's coat is very easy care, so a normally coated GSD wouldn't bug me. Much.
All these pics are adorable, keep em' coming!
I like the war stories too! I'm glad when owners go out of their way to explain to strangers on the street why their breed isn't naturally well behaved. Thats uh, exactly how I ended up finally taking Scout. My friend's mom liked Lily, so went and got this second hand dog despite me warning her that Lily is so well behaved because she's mentally and physically worked hard every day.... yeah that went well!
My decoy/trainer owned and worked GSD's before going to mals. He showed me a scar on his arm from his last male GSD he had and trialed to a pretty high level I believe, I dunno I don't pry and he doesn't brag so I just get little tidbits here and there... anyway this big boy was a very good Schutzhund dog, but was also very serious when he worked. He came right up the leash and nailed him during OB. I've heard of lots of very good working GSD's being that hard. Or maybe not so much hard as very opinionated and intolerant of screw ups. It seems to me that theres a difference between that and nerviness because nervy dogs aren't confident and a lot of those dogs are very confident and with GSD's being thinkers and knowing how far they can push or walk all over someone.... yeah. I hope I worded that clearly. Sometimes I feel like I suck at trying to explain information I've absorbed during researching.
Yeah mine occasionally get called Mals too. And Tervs. Kinda weird because it seems if you know what they are, you'd know those two aren't black. Ok sometimes Mals are black but if they're black and longhaired...they're not Mals any more LOL
Stan is looking great! Handsome and smart Love the pictures of him and Grant. Poor Grant LOL
My husband loves our dogs but he'd not choose any variety of Belgian for himself. And it isn't the wild exuberance that bothers him about them. He actually enjoys his dogs a bit crazy and of his favorites we've had here was one of the craziest (that he nicknamed Beastie). It's other little but typical things that he sees in our dogs and my friends dogs. It's the shrieking. They don't all shriek but we have a couple who do and have had some temporary shriekers too. It was really hard for him to get used to being around dogs who shrieked like they were in distress on a regular basis due to over-excitement or frustration. And it's the neediness. Especially with the boys but sometimes the girls too. Just their active neediness - pushing at you, barking at you, shoving toys at you, not being happy with just petting but wanting you to interact and really pay attention. And not taking no for an answer. It's the manipulative ways that are sort of unique to Belgians. Smart yes but sometimes they use their powers for evil instead of good
My good GSD (not that I didn't love all three but only one of the three was what I'd consider an ideal example of the breed temperament wise) was pretty awesome. She knew no fear and never said no to anything I attempted with her. She was intense, driven and focused. She was extremely fast in agility and a nice up, flashy obedience dog but for some reason, I never trialed her. She was a good house dog as an adult but a bit of a handful as a puppy. She was crazy for sure. When we took her swimming she had to be forced to take breaks because she'd swim herself to exhaustion. She would retrieve until her pads were bloody and raw but never show any signs of discomfort. And much to my husband's dismay...she shrieked when excited too!
But she was a lot more level headed than most Belgians and not as manipulative. Good GSDs are amazing problem solvers and the relationship they form with their people is really unique to them. Belgians are really good at manipulating their environment but some struggle with frustration issues when it comes to problem solving. They get all worked up then they can't think and just start flinging themselves into whatever occurs to them first. Repeatedly. Because that has to be what they're suppose to do. Good GSDs don't tend to be that way. With a GSD, they really just want nothing more than to do stuff for you. Belgians are great training partners too and love the sort of interaction that comes with training but they can be a bit more...independent in a way I guess. Overall, I tend to consider GSDs a more developed breed and Belgians a less developed breed behavior/temperament wise, if that makes sense. Belgians can sometimes react to things in an almost feral way, I don't tend to see that in GSDs. Belgians tend to think and act or react very fast. GSDs tend to be more reasonable overall - although the high drive ones can have their moments, like any high drive dog LOL
All that said, those are just generalizations. There is a pretty wide range of temperaments commonly seen in both breeds. Both breeds tend to have similar temperament faults and can have very similar challenges in day to day life. Both have a lot of the same considerations when looking at breeders, as there are breeders of both who are selecting for extreme sport dogs rather than good examples of the breed. And there are a good number of not-so-great breeders of both. Of course, that's true of just about any breed.
As for size, the standard is the same for both but GSDs will usually be heavier boned and longer bodied.
One sad thing about having Belgians and GSDs at the same time was seeing how much faster the GSDs aged comparatively
I don't mind scraping knuckles on teeth and having a dog scratch me up with dewclaws if he gets into a game of tug. I don't blink an eye at that. I just don't enjoy a dog that will redirect, sometimes without discrimination, nearly as much. Well, I know that no one enjoys it but I don't think that's what a German Shepherd should be, and to take it up a step, I think that's an issue in itself.[/QUOTE]
I don't think either breed should be redirecting onto their handler. I don't think that is a desired temperament trait at all. I do think the Belgian breeds can be more prone to it, although I'd not say it's uncommon in some lines of GSD. And I do think that in both breeds, it is sometimes due to dogs being intolerant of harsh treatment more so than a temperament issue. Unfortunately, there is still some very, very harsh training in protection sports.
Stan is looking great! Handsome and smart
Love the pictures of him and Grant. Poor Grant LOLMy husband loves our dogs but he'd not choose any variety of Belgian for himself. And it isn't the wild exuberance that bothers him about them. He actually enjoys his dogs a bit crazy and of his favorites we've had here was one of the craziest (that he nicknamed Beastie). It's other little but typical things that he sees in our dogs and my friends dogs. It's the shrieking. They don't all shriek but we have a couple who do and have had some temporary shriekers too. It was really hard for him to get used to being around dogs who shrieked like they were in distress on a regular basis due to over-excitement or frustration. And it's the neediness. Especially with the boys but sometimes the girls too. Just their active neediness - pushing at you, barking at you, shoving toys at you, not being happy with just petting but wanting you to interact and really pay attention. And not taking no for an answer. It's the manipulative ways that are sort of unique to Belgians. Smart yes but sometimes they use their powers for evil instead of good
My good GSD (not that I didn't love all three but only one of the three was what I'd consider an ideal example of the breed temperament wise) was pretty awesome. She knew no fear and never said no to anything I attempted with her. She was intense, driven and focused. She was extremely fast in agility and a nice up, flashy obedience dog but for some reason, I never trialed her. She was a good house dog as an adult but a bit of a handful as a puppy. She was crazy for sure. When we took her swimming she had to be forced to take breaks because she'd swim herself to exhaustion. She would retrieve until her pads were bloody and raw but never show any signs of discomfort. And much to my husband's dismay...she shrieked when excited too!
But she was a lot more level headed than most Belgians and not as manipulative. Good GSDs are amazing problem solvers and the relationship they form with their people is really unique to them. Belgians are really good at manipulating their environment but some struggle with frustration issues when it comes to problem solving. They get all worked up then they can't think and just start flinging themselves into whatever occurs to them first. Repeatedly. Because that has to be what they're suppose to do. Good GSDs don't tend to be that way. With a GSD, they really just want nothing more than to do stuff for you. Belgians are great training partners too and love the sort of interaction that comes with training but they can be a bit more...independent in a way I guess. Overall, I tend to consider GSDs a more developed breed and Belgians a less developed breed behavior/temperament wise, if that makes sense. Belgians can sometimes react to things in an almost feral way, I don't tend to see that in GSDs. Belgians tend to think and act or react very fast. GSDs tend to be more reasonable overall - although the high drive ones can have their moments, like any high drive dog LOL
All that said, those are just generalizations. There is a pretty wide range of temperaments commonly seen in both breeds. Both breeds tend to have similar temperament faults and can have very similar challenges in day to day life. Both have a lot of the same considerations when looking at breeders, as there are breeders of both who are selecting for extreme sport dogs rather than good examples of the breed. And there are a good number of not-so-great breeders of both. Of course, that's true of just about any breed.
As for size, the standard is the same for both but GSDs will usually be heavier boned and longer bodied.
One sad thing about having Belgians and GSDs at the same time was seeing how much faster the GSDs aged comparatively
I don't mind scraping knuckles on teeth and having a dog scratch me up with dewclaws if he gets into a game of tug. I don't blink an eye at that. I just don't enjoy a dog that will redirect, sometimes without discrimination, nearly as much. Well, I know that no one enjoys it but I don't think that's what a German Shepherd should be, and to take it up a step, I think that's an issue in itself.[/QUOTE]
I don't think either breed should be redirecting onto their handler. I don't think that is a desired temperament trait at all. I do think the Belgian breeds can be more prone to it, although I'd not say it's uncommon in some lines of GSD. And I do think that in both breeds, it is sometimes due to dogs being intolerant of harsh treatment more so than a temperament issue. Unfortunately, there is still some very, very harsh training in protection sports.