This Abercrombie Debacle...Opinions?

[release the hounds]

society can't really find fat people unattractive, because the majority of our society is fat and there are still a lot of single thin people.

So they don't make clothes for plus sized people. It's not their market, they're hardly unique. In fact, most places didn't. They had completely separate plus sized stores. More recently more retailers used big and tall and plus sized sections in which clothes found there usually weren't anything like the rest of the store. Today they have changed sizes and larger sizes now have smaller numbers and they have moved a lot of former "plus" sizes into "regular" clothes groups.

Besides, most clothes are made by slave labor in horrible conditions so we can buy cheap clothes. There's such an abundance of clothes a lot of clothes you drop off at donation sites get burned because 3rd world charities don't even want to store them all, they have too many the way it is. Again, this isn't unique to Abercrombie.

I dont' shop there mostly because I find their ad campaigns and such to be nothing more than spiced up child porn. I'm not their market I'm sure and this isn't going to make me more or less likely to go buy something from there anyway.

 

[Taqroy]

If the older generation of my family sees someone overweight on the beach in a bikini, they say things like "ewwww" "DOES SHE OWN A MIRROR?!?" "that should be illegal" "is she trying to make people sick?" etc. Their reactions are 100 times more disgusting and disturbing than anyone who is overweight or even obese's body will ever be to me.

I'm not entirely sure this is an age thing. My sister told me that fat people should be shamed at the doctor's office because they're fat and therefore all their health issues are their fault. She's 29, went to the same high school and college as I did and is brilliant but has traded on her looks all her life.

I think in certain subsets the fat hatred is subsiding but...I dunno. I see a lot more acceptance online in the forums I hang out on than I do in real life. I don't know if it's because it's easier to say it than to do it, or if it's just a biased sample on the forums.

 

[sassafras]

It's not a skewed view of what you're saying but I think you're misunderstanding what I am saying.

I'm not talking about somebody finding fat chicks unattractive.
I'm talking about somebody saying I HATE fat chicks.

Racism isn't "I just don't find black people/Asians/Indians/Mexicans/whatever attractive."
It's "I HATE such-and-such race."


One is fine. The other is not.

(Hint: it's the one where hate is involved.)

Well honestly I think when most people say "I hate fat people" they don't really HATE fat people. They hate fat people the way they hate broccoli, or the way I love ice cream. JMO. The only people who I've encountered who I think really, truly HATE fat people have all been skinny people who used to be fat. Which always makes me scratch my head, but is a tangent.

And I think it's incredibly sad that it's common enough that the response is just "Oh there's another guy who hates fat chicks *yawn*" or "It is what it is."

Sigh. Yes, you really DO have a skewed idea of what I mean. But again, I'm not using hate as HATE. I really am using it interchangeably with "finding unattractive" because honestly... I don't think it's true hate.

I just mean, I don't let it affect me. It's nothing to me if he doesn't find me attractive (obviously semantics are in play here). And it's ok if he does. Frankly I don't find him attractive, either.

But it's ok if you find me sad. It doesn't affect me. I'm going to take my sad, fat ass off to a baseball game now, and afterwards I'll probably get laid since my husband LOVES sad old fat chicks, and we won't shop at Abercrombie AT ALL.


ETA: I've wasted far, far too much energy over the years actually BEING sad about people thinking I'm ugly because I'm fat. Just not interested in doing that anymore. Interesting that you find that sad while I find it liberating.

 

[Dizzy]

I'd like to add... I do judge people ALL THE TIME in my head.

All the time.

I look at it as my problem not theirs though, and I often wish I had the balls to not care about my odd roll of podge and not care about getting a hair cut etc.

But I also don't share my thoughts with the general public, and I'm not a market leader in women's fashion, and I know it's bad!! But I'm also totally brainwashed.

I think all sectors of society judge, it's not really about that. I don't penalise people for how they look. I don't laugh and point at people. You wouldn't even know what goes through my head. I'm not a saint though.

It's about marketing, and being told you have to look a certain way to make someone else feel rich and 99% of people who don't look that way feel bad.

We all have ideas of what we find beautiful, it's about WHY we think that.

If you don't feel you're influenced by adverts and marketing then you're mad!!

Banksy:

People are taking the **** out of you everyday. They butt into your life, take a cheap shot at you and then disappear. They leer at you from tall buildings and make you feel small. They make flippant comments from buses that imply you’re not sexy enough and that all the fun is happening somewhere else. They are on TV making your girlfriend feel inadequate. They have access to the most sophisticated technology the world has ever seen and they bully you with it. They are The Advertisers and they are laughing at you. You, however, are forbidden to touch them. Trademarks, intellectual property rights and copyright law mean advertisers can say what they like wherever they like with total impunity. **** that. Any advert in a public space that gives you no choice whether you see it or not is yours. It’s yours to take, re-arrange and re-use. You can do whatever you like with it. Asking for permission is like asking to keep a rock someone just threw at your head. You owe the companies nothing. Less than nothing, you especially don’t owe them any courtesy. They owe you. They have re-arranged the world to put themselves in front of you. They never asked for your permission, don’t even start asking for theirs.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

Beauty and race are completely different things. Race is not a subjective feature. Either someone is black or they are not. Beauty is subjective. And it's ok for someone to find fat people unattractive.

The problem is that in our society IMO is that finding fat people unattractive has become "normal." And yes, that is what it is. Acknowledging that it is a problem doesn't mean I don't think it IS a problem. Racism is what it is, too. Some people hate black people, or Asian people. That just... is what it is. Does that make me a racist?

Do I like it? No. Is my rage going to change it? No. Is boycotting Abercrombie going to change it? No. What is going to change it? Individuals being willing to be open about their unconventional tastes, and media being willing to step outside of the objective standard's mold. It will take time - just like racism is taking time to fight.

Hi, I'm just going to piggy back.


**** the cold

 

[milos_mommy]

Yeah, my experiences with people's reactions might be skewed by a variety of things, such as the majority of my experiences with people in another generation are either my family (who are mostly huge jerks) or employers (who probably aren't going to tell me how they feel about fat people)...and most of my friends are pretty well-educated, progressively minded people.

Sass - I understood what you're saying, and my posts weren't really a response to that. Just that I think people are becoming more aware of the issue.

But I do disagree, and I think this instance WILL have some effect on things. Why?

1. People who shop at Abercrombie may not even THINK about this. If Abercrombie carries their size, they might not ever consider the stores stance on social issues. But, they'll think about it now.

2. And they won't just think about it when they go to Abercrombie. This might make people realize stores only cater to a specific demographic intentionally, and the motives behind it are disturbed. Now that they're thought about this, lots of people will be more likely to seek out stores that have a positive stance on weight discrimination.

3. Other stores are going to notice this negative press, and they're going to want to do the opposite of what this CEO is doing. Even if it's just a marketing scheme, it's still a plus if CEOs of major clothing companies stand up and say "We want to make people of every size feel comfortable shopping here".

4. Aside from the response of wanting to take the opposite stance of Abercrombie, places might incorporate this into their marketing. After this, more companies will actively seek out advertising with plus-size or unconventional models. Some companies already do that (Dove is one example), more are going to follow in response to this. People are going to see more variety in the body types and looks on billboards, and feel more comfortable expressing an appreciation or attraction for that.

5. Social media. I've yet to see any meme, video, commentary on how this CEO is "cool". A lot of impressionable middle schoolers and young high schoolers see all the facebook, tumblr, twitter, youtube posts bashing this CEO. And they're going to think, consciously or subconsciously, that they do not want to share this guy's views or attitude.

Abercrombie going out of business or doing poorly would not change a thing. But the publicity that is coming from this will have some (small or large, I don't know) effect on the industry.

 

[eddieq]

Abercrombie going out of business or doing poorly would not change a thing. But the publicity that is coming from this will have some (small or large, I don't know) effect on the industry.

True. I can see the ad campaigns - "Shop at Old Navy - clothes to fit a dingy or a tug boat"

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

I must really be more of a loser than most, I don't buy clothes with a conscious for the most part.

I buy cheap and I buy functionally cute. A&F has always been a rip off so my mom wouldn't allow it, even when my entire closet came from Nordstroms. I just... never cared. The fact they have always been elitists never made me feel any different, I'm not sure that it does now.

I expect most CEOs have far dirtier beliefs. Those that I know known have been atrocious people, you rarely get to the top by being a sweet person.

 

[Barbara!]

Beauty and race are completely different things. Race is not a subjective feature. Either someone is black or they are not. Beauty is subjective. And it's ok for someone to find fat people unattractive.

The problem is that in our society IMO is that finding fat people unattractive has become "normal." And yes, that is what it is. Acknowledging that it is a problem doesn't mean I don't think it IS a problem. Racism is what it is, too. Some people hate black people, or Asian people. That just... is what it is. Does that make me a racist?

Do I like it? No. Is my rage going to change it? No. Is boycotting Abercrombie going to change it? No. What is going to change it? Individuals being willing to be open about their unconventional tastes, and media being willing to step outside of the objective standard's mold. It will take time - just like racism is taking time to fight.

This.

I don't think you can compare racism with someone not liking fat people. Someone can't control their race, they can control their weight. Just an observation.

 

[Dizzy]

This.

I don't think you can compare racism with someone not liking fat people. Someone can't control their race, they can control their weight. Just an observation.

If it was easy to control your weight, there wouldn't be any fat people

 

[Beanie]

Sigh. Yes, you really DO have a skewed idea of what I mean. But again, I'm not using hate as HATE. I really am using it interchangeably with "finding unattractive" because honestly... I don't think it's true hate.

Okay, you're using a word but you don't mean it. Fair enough. That is where the disconnect is. I took you at the word's meaning. Because yes, there ARE people out there who HATE fat people.

But it's ok if you find me sad.

Nope, not what I said, read it again:

I think it's incredibly sad that it's common enough that the response is just "Oh there's another guy who hates fat chicks *yawn*" or "It is what it is."

Quite a bit like the People Who Judge Me project. I found it incredibly sad that the woman involved has experienced so much hatred and judgement over her weight that it is her default assumption when people are looking at her that they are judging her for her weight. She did not just wake up randomly one day and decide "That guy is looking at me - he must be making fun of me for my weight!!" It HAPPENED to her OFTEN ENOUGH that she began to just accept and believe that judging and teasing over her weight is the default whenever somebody looks at her.
Her feelings over the situation are separate - the occurrences leading up to her current state of mind is what makes me sad.

If you still feel it's too personal, let me make another comparison: a kid who just accepts being bullied at school without letting it "get to him" anymore because it has happened so often that it is just plain and simple a part of his life. It is absolutely disgusting that he has endured so much cruelty that he no longer even cares. This was actually one of my friends in high school. He ceased to care even though the "cool kids" continued to do cruel, mean things to him on a near daily basis.
Liberated isn't exactly what I would call that, but I understand if you feel that way. But it doesn't make what has occurred leading up to that point any less sad to me (or the fact that it continues, either, really.)

 

[~Jessie~]

Okay, you're using a word but you don't mean it. Fair enough. That is where the disconnect is. I took you at the word's meaning. Because yes, there ARE people out there who HATE fat people.



Nope, not what I said, read it again:


Quite a bit like the People Who Judge Me project. I found it incredibly sad that the woman involved has experienced so much hatred and judgement over her weight that it is her default assumption when people are looking at her that they are judging her for her weight. She did not just wake up randomly one day and decide "That guy is looking at me - he must be making fun of me for my weight!!" It HAPPENED to her OFTEN ENOUGH that she began to just accept and believe that judging and teasing over her weight is the default whenever somebody looks at her.
Her feelings over the situation are separate - the occurrences leading up to her current state of mind is what makes me sad.

If you still feel it's too personal, let me make another comparison: a kid who just accepts being bullied at school without letting it "get to him" anymore because it has happened so often that it is just plain and simple a part of his life. It is absolutely disgusting that he has endured so much cruelty that he no longer even cares. This was actually one of my friends in high school. He ceased to care even though the "cool kids" continued to do cruel, mean things to him on a near daily basis.
Liberated isn't exactly what I would call that, but I understand if you feel that way. But it doesn't make what has occurred leading up to that point any less sad to me (or the fact that it continues, either, really.)

I went to high school with a girl who was teased immensely. People would throw water bottles at her during gym class, and she would just sit there and take it. She expected people to be cruel to her, because it happened her entire life.

Bullying in general NEEDS to stop as a whole, but the individual pieces are important as well. We should never accept people (and companies) being blatantly CRUEL to people. Abercrombie is just CRUEL. It's not an employee at a store... it's the CEO of the entire company. The whole platform of the company IS bullying. I've already posted this quote, but it really does sum up how evil this man is.

"In every school there are the cool and popular kids, and then there are the not-so-cool kids," he says. "Candidly, we go after the cool kids. We go after the attractive all-American kid with a great attitude and a lot of friends. A lot of people don't belong [in our clothes], and they can't belong. Are we exclusionary? Absolutely. Those companies that are in trouble are trying to target everybody: young, old, fat, skinny. But then you become totally vanilla. You don't alienate anybody, but you don't excite anybody, either."

Alienating people and making them feel like CRAP for not fitting into their "look" is cruel. I don't have an issue with stores catering to certain sizes (I can't fit into Lane Bryant, for instance), but it's all about how Abercrombie makes their sizes based on who they think is "cool" and who "shouldn't" wear their clothing. Most stores have a cut off with sizes because they don't have the market for them. Abercrombie does it just to be assholes.

I would LOVE to see this company go down. Even if nothing else comes from it, they deserve to topple over.

If everyone thought "but it's just one company so why bother," nothing would ever change.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

If it was easy to control your weight, there wouldn't be any fat people

She didn't say easy, she just said it is controllable.

 

[milos_mommy]

It's controllable to an extent, moreso than race...but it isn't always controllable. What about people who are just SIZE XL or XXL? Not because of their body fat or muscle, but because of their frame, bone structure, height? There are hundreds upon thousands of physical medical problems that cause people to be overweight, and there is NOTHING those people can safely do about it. Or eating disorders...yes, some people can control them with (often unaffordable or inaccessible) treatment, but if they were all simply "controllable", people wouldn't have eating disorders.

Or, you know, medical issues aside, just the fact that some people are naturally bigger or heavier than others, and either that's not able to be changed, or they aren't able to be healthy while still maintaining it.

 

[Julee]

Beanie, marry me?

Y'know... weight is not always controllable.

I've never shopped at any of those stores, mostly because even at my thinnest (courtesy of EDNOS), I've never fit in any of their clothing, partially because they're all an hour plus away and too expensive.

I'm too tired to be entirely coherent, so forgive me, but... at someone struggling with an eating disorder, who is still fat, his comments are pretty triggering, and I know a lot of friends in recovery who feel the same way. It's not just one person telling you you're not good enough because you're fat, it's a whole company. Realistically, I know not everyone who works for that company supports that view, but that's very overwhelming.

I intended to make a longer post, but I got distracted and lost my train of thought. Womp womp.

 

[Xandra]

They only market to skinny people? ...so what? I didn't know there was a rule stating that clothing companies must carry up to size 18 in-store otherwise they are terrible? The CEO was explaining his marketing strategy... that's what companies are supposed to do, come up with successful marketing strategies. From the sounds of things his strategies aren't working (whoops) but that's not really an ethical issue. I mean, just because H&M stocks 16 doesn't mean they love heavy people or that their CEO is a lovely person. They've just recognized a different market and have a different marketing strategy.

Hey now, don't get me wrong, I love it when I go into a store and fit into things, so yes please, by all means, put social pressure on companies to carry larger sizes (and stock lots of them!! I HATE it when I find my size...in the ugly color :lol-sign. And while you're at it, long as well. It would also be great if tops came in long.

I'm just slightly perplexed by the outrage over this little comment. Did people not know heavy people have a harder time finding clothes that fit? Or do they just not like the A&F CEO being frank about marketing to a specific demographic?

People need to go shopping with their heavy friends, that will clue them in to which companies to go after next.

 

[joce]

Honestly its his store and I don't care. I obviously won't be shopping there seeing as how I go back and forth from 16 and an 18. I did get clothes there in high school and did not like the store then but that was the fashion.


You have to pitty people filled with so much hate. If he was only selling certain sizes I'd think nothing of it though. There are a lot of places I am screwed if I don't fit into their 16.

And not to go where he is but I kind of am. Saw a pic about this on facebook today and he is not exactly model pretty. I think they made the comparison to gary busey(sp). You have to laugh when someone is bashing others to make themselves feel good which deep down is likely what is going on.


I was thin in high school,actually looked pretty skeletal looking back. I didn't eat. when I eat I am pretty thick. I accept it. Got sick of starving myself. I buy a looot of clothing so whoever has my size gets my money

 

[~Jessie~]

They only market to skinny people? ...so what? I didn't know there was a rule stating that clothing companies must carry up to size 18 in-store otherwise they are terrible? The CEO was explaining his marketing strategy... that's what companies are supposed to do, come up with successful marketing strategies. From the sounds of things his strategies aren't working (whoops) but that's not really an ethical issue. I mean, just because H&M stocks 16 doesn't mean they love heavy people or that their CEO is a lovely person. They've just recognized a different market and have a different marketing strategy.

Hey now, don't get me wrong, I love it when I go into a store and fit into things, so yes please, by all means, put social pressure on companies to carry larger sizes (and stock lots of them!! I HATE it when I find my size...in the ugly color :lol-sign. And while you're at it, long as well. It would also be great if tops came in long.

I'm just slightly perplexed by the outrage over this little comment. Did people not know heavy people have a harder time finding clothes that fit? Or do they just not like the A&F CEO being frank about marketing to a specific demographic?

People need to go shopping with their heavy friends, that will clue them in to which companies to go after next.

I always have a hard time finding pants in my size- 2 short. I can't shop at SO many stores because they cater to tall people! American Eagle has been my go-to. I used to get most of my jeans at Abercrombie back in high school/college, and I still occasionally wear their jeans that I have in my closet.

I don't care if a company wants to cater to size 2 only (please do- it would make my shopping so much easier) or size 20 only. Most stores only carry up to certain sizes because of inventory and marketing. It makes sense to have nitch "plus size" stores, just as it makes sense to have stores marketing to the petite.

Saying that fat people aren't cool or popular and aren't allowed to wear their clothes is what rubs me the wrong way. Their target demographic is the 14-22 year old crowd. Talk about body issues galore. He's a douche bag for bullying teenagers who, as a group, already have a ton of body and self confidence issues.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

It sucks that you are personally bothered. Do as you see fit.

I can never change the fact I am mutt of run away immigrants from oppressive societies. I can change my weight, to what extent depends on each person. I have been known to have my fair share of anxiety related wrong disorders and I consider myself over weight. Sometimes I feel like I'm not allowed to give myself some type of label though because frankly I don't let it define me nor consume me and my views.

The real criminal is the way you view yourself and how you view or treat others, not some dude who probably has more issues than you. What's that saying about fighting hate with hate?

I don't know what else to say...

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

They only market to skinny people? ...so what? I didn't know there was a rule stating that clothing companies must carry up to size 18 in-store otherwise they are terrible? The CEO was explaining his marketing strategy... that's what companies are supposed to do, come up with successful marketing strategies. From the sounds of things his strategies aren't working (whoops) but that's not really an ethical issue. I mean, just because H&M stocks 16 doesn't mean they love heavy people or that their CEO is a lovely person. They've just recognized a different market and have a different marketing strategy.

Hey now, don't get me wrong, I love it when I go into a store and fit into things, so yes please, by all means, put social pressure on companies to carry larger sizes (and stock lots of them!! I HATE it when I find my size...in the ugly color :lol-sign. And while you're at it, long as well. It would also be great if tops came in long.

I'm just slightly perplexed by the outrage over this little comment. Did people not know heavy people have a harder time finding clothes that fit? Or do they just not like the A&F CEO being frank about marketing to a specific demographic?

People need to go shopping with their heavy friends, that will clue them in to which companies to go after next.

There are stores who only market to plus sizes, I don't think it's socially acceptable to rage about them though.