The Unthinkable has happened...

[Calamity Kate]

Smile? Please. Curl their lips in a facsimile of a smile, yes but please tell me that you do not honestly believe that you have seen a dog smile in the same way that a human smiles. A chimpanzee can make a "smile", but I assure you that they do not do it for the same reasons we do.

And if a dog stayed by my side while a car sped toward my poor, frail body it would be because a dog lacks the foresight to anticipate what will happen when said car hits said frail body, not love.

Look. The dogs I have owned and loved have been loved BECAUSE they are dogs, not because I try desperately to convince myself that they feel human emotions.

 

[Calamity Kate]

I personally, think u have made the right decision, she has food agression, this is a fact. The bite was provoked and she wasnt aiming for Maggie's face ill bet, but it was probably at the right height. like an arm on an adult.
It doesnt sound like an overly agressive attack, it was a natural dog behaviour.

Oh, well that's OK then! Let's hope Maggie grows quickly, so that her arms become more conveniently within bite range!

And as long as the attack wasn't OVERLY aggressive, that's OK too. Brilliant.

 

[Doberluv]

Calamity Kate....I'm sorry to say, but you're behind the times as far as recent scientific research as well as opinions of the esteemed Charles Darwin as far as canine emotions. My own Doberman, as well as a few on a Doberman board I go on, smiles. He only smiles when he's having a super wee of a good time, when he's playing or when he's really excited to come to me. He draws his lips way up and all his teeth show. My Dad had a GSD who smiled. I even have a picture somewhere of a Doberman, (not mine) smiling while standing in another room, adjacent to where the person was taking the picture.

Anyhow...enough about smiles. There's a good article in Family Dog magazine...a few issues back discussing the recent scientific data which many behavioral scientists are becoming convinced that dogs do share many of the same emotions we have. Of course, they're a little different because naturally, we have different experiences and ways of processing them on account of who we are. But....they do believe dogs and other animals feel dejection, jelousy, joy, love and a few others. I think there might be a thread somewhere on this forum about this...can't remember for sure. I remember making a thread about this on this forum or another one. Charles Darwin, himself had something like 12 dogs and those were his main interest. It is from studying dogs that he branched out into the other areas. But they were his first love and he made a lot of observations.

Anyhow....as far as dogs having emotions and some dogs smiling with joy, I definitely believe they do. I've seen it with my own eyes and have had dogs for many years.

 

[Renee750il]

Thanks for that post, Doberluv

http://www.chazhound.com/pictures/showphoto.php?photo=7826&cat=500&ppuser=148

 

[opokki]

I too, had a GSD x that smiled. He did this most often during greetings when we arrived home while, at the same time, wiggling his entire body.
I think these "dog-smiles" are also referred to as submissive grimaces.

 

[Calamity Kate]

<I think these "dog-smiles" are also referred to as submissive grimaces>

Precisely my point. I'm not disputing that they may well pull the same faces as we do, and occasionally in the right context and at the right times, but ultimately, it is not a "smile" in the same way, and for the same reasons that we do.

 

[smkie]

sally grinned when i tripped and did a belly flop on the deck..seemed to me she snickered too, and you say the word work and Victor flashes his bottom teeth grin, it is a happy face all the way so i disagree.
On this day there was no mistake that Mary thought we were all just silly
http://www.chazhound.com/pictures/showphoto.php?photo=5751&cat=500&ppuser=2623

 

[Doberluv]

I know what you mean. I've heard of submissive grimaces. But I tell you what...LOL. This dog of mine was not being one bit submissive at the times when he's doing this. If I scold him or anything and he should be acting submissive, he does not smile. It's when he's out roaring around in the yard, having fun or when he's charging to me. He is having a rip roaring good time and that's when those lips come up. Anyhow, they talked about this in this article which I wrote about in the other thread, entitled "the emotions of canines."

 

[Renee750il]

Yup, Dober . . . you can tell that's not a "submissive grimace" on Bimmer's face! He was actually quite proud of himself when I took that photo, lol!

 

[Muttlies3]

I don't have enough time to read every page in this thread so I don't know if the dog was put to death yet, but I read to the point where that was the final option (page 3 or 4.) (Could someone who's been in this thread since it was posted be ever so nice to let me know what's happened to the dog?)

My question to the OP is :

Have you sought PROFESSIONAL help on this yet? Before putting your dog to death I highly suggest this, in fact I beg of you to try it.

I'm so sorry you're put in this situation. This is one of the reasons I am worried about ever having children. I'm not sure if I will - and I surely don't want to be in your situation.

{HUGS}

 

[Julie]

I think they decided to keep the dog and get training help.

There is also another thread I think "We couldn't go thru with it" or something like that. From the same OP.

 

[Muttlies3]

Thank you, Julie. Just too much reading after working since 4am in the morning.

I'm very grateful they've decided to try some other options!

 

[gapeach]

Yes, we have sought professional help, the trainer has yet to get back with me and we are currently trying to reach her. I do know that dogs are not people and I do not treat her as such but dogs do indeed love their people. How about the dogs who lie on their dead master's grave? Or the ones who travel thousands of miles to get back to their owners? Or the ones who risk their own lives to save their owners? Not all dogs are alike. Yes she bit Maggie and if it had been more severe we may have decided differently. And yes it was an instinct for her to bite, but as I've said before it was a warning. Maggie never should have been in the room with Carey with the treat ball, that was my fault and it will not happen again. We, as I have mentioned several times now, are seeking training help from a professional. Carey has never been an aggressive dog (besides the food issue) She has always been wonderful with all different ages of children. She was fantastic with Maggie as an infant, and no I am not and never have been one of these stupid parents who let their child do whatever they want to the dog. My children will never be left unattended with Carey. The problem is Carey sees Maggie as a lesser member of our family, that is what has to be changed with the help of a professional.

 

[Violet21]

I would like to say that i am SO sorry for your situation, and I have never had to deal with anything like that.. you poor people I feel absolutely horrible for you.

I would like to tell you also about when I brought home a new puppy, how my Golden Zac reacted to it.. I did not end up keeping the puppy because my mom had to go for surgery (cancer) and it was NOT the right time. anyways,
Zac is a very, very nice dog and completely completely knows I am the boss. He is fabulous with children, other dogs, cats, etc. However this puppy, in his home, Zac growled, barked ferociously and tried to bite him.

It was obvious to me that he regarded this puppy as much beneath him and his behaviour shocked me!
I am not comparing your child to a puppy or saying anything really, just mentioning that.

I think your dog is probably a good dog with some dominance issues. I would feel very freaked about keeping it too, especially with a tiny vulernable child.
I don't believe tho that being put down is perhaps the right issue. The dog sounds like he could likely be trained, and that this is a guarding food issue. If he bit spontaneously it would be a worse problem i think.

But please, do whatever is right for your family!! I feel terrible for you.

 

[gapeach]

Thank you Violet, it is entirely a dominane issue that we are currently working to resolve. Carey has to work to get everything at our house now, eats after we do and comes in and out after we do. She has to basic commands to get her food, water, play and love time and if she wants in or out of the house. Our trainer has not yet contacted us back but I believe it's becuase she has gone out of town. When she comes home we will begin working with her also.

 

[Calamity Kate]

<Yes she bit Maggie and if it had been more severe we may have decided differently. >

More severe than biting her face???
Unbelieveable...

 

[taratippy]

Gapeach it sounds like you are doing everything possible to sort the situation out and well done to you for trying.

 

[afears01]

This is so hard. I have a wonderful Boxer who loves all of my kids, ages 12, 4, and 3. She has never, ever shown any aggression towards my kids, and is the best dog I could possibly have hoped for. If she were to bite one of my kids now, I would feel the same way as you, and I would be heartbroken to have to give her up. However, I would do it. I would like to say that I would go out and get her a behaviorist and a trainer and all of that, but I'm not sure I would. The reason?? I don't think I would ever be able to relax again and trust my dog again around not only my kids, but kids she does not know as well, even with all of the training and new behaviors. I know this is going to break your heart, and mine goes out to you, but I think you must get rid of her for everyone's sake. The dog is obviously not comfortable, your daughter could be afraid of dogs forever, and it's possible that you could have something even worse happen to her, like losing a finger or well, anything else. Besides, you will never be able to walk around your house, your dog walking along beside you, without feeling like you have to be on eggshells all the time. That will, in turn, make the dog nervous and more apt to bite. Jeez, I am really, really sorry. I sure hope you find the courage to give the dog a new and childless home. I will pray for your strength.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

IMO, "getting rid of" (HOW I HATE THOSE WORDS) the dog, or rehoming her in a home without children is not an option.

The owner would be liable for any future injury she caused, since she is already on record as a biter. The child received medical attention for her wounds, so this bite is documented.

Again, it is my opinion that placing a dog who is a known biter in most circumstances would be irresponsible and you would also be liable should the dog injure someone else in the future.

 

[PFC1]

The owner would be liable for any future injury she caused, since she is already on record as a biter. The child received medical attention for her wounds, so this bite is documented.

Again, it is my opinion that placing a dog who is a known biter in most circumstances would be irresponsible and you would also be liable should the dog injure someone else in the future.

I can't speak for any other jurisdictions, but I think that this statement does not acurately state the law here. Perhaps this is true where you live, but it is not necessarily true everywhere.