Teddy Bear 'Mohammad'

[Puckstop31]

OK... Lets try this from another angle then. Should we (the west) even try to help modernize those places in the world where the practice of Islam keeps people oppressed? If the answer is yes, then how do you propose we do that? But also keep in mind that if you say no, then I suppose you condone the things that the average westerner should find appalling.

As for seeing it from their eyes, I like to think I have a basic understanding of how they see the world. I have spent time in that part of the world. Also, I understand what it means to have a deep religious faith.

There is not one ounce of hate in my bones for those people. I understand that probably about 90% of them want what we all want... A safe and peaceful life where we are free to control our own destiny. If there is any hate here, it is the Muslim Clerics who incite those mobs to such a fury to kill.

 

[HoundedByHounds]

then I suppose you condone the things that the average westerner should find appalling.
.

this one sentance shows any discussion with you on the topic would be fruitless unless we agree with you.

That's like saying..."I don't like ear cropping...and I think everyone who isn't anti-cropping, even if they themselves never own a cropped dog let alone crop a dog by their own choice...is condoning animal cruelty as a whole. Unless they are agreeing with me that ear cropping is cruel and they are anti....then they are condoning all forms of animal cruelty"

Where exactly do you expect that discussion to go, when you have already decided so much about the person you are asking to discuss the issue with you?

 

[GipsyQueen]

I don't think we should 'blame' an uncivilized country on a religion. There are plenty of countries out there who are civilized and an Islamic country at the same time. (Turkey for example.) Sure, there are conflicts between (my) country and Turkey at the moment due to race, but I have been to Turkey and it seemed *normal*.

 

[Puckstop31]

this one sentance shows any discussion with you on the topic would be fruitless unless we agree with you.

That's like saying..."I don't like ear cropping...and I think everyone who isn't anti-cropping, even if they themselves never own a cropped dog let alone crop a dog by their own choice...is condoning animal cruelty as a whole. Unless they are agreeing with me that ear cropping is cruel and they are anti....then they are condoning all forms of animal cruelty"

Where exactly do you expect that discussion to go, when you have already decided so much about the person you are asking to discuss the issue with you?

Why do you think I even engage in discussion like this? I LOVE to chat with people when we disagree on something. This being said....

I understand what you are trying to say with your analogy. Even so, my question still stands. What do we do about violent Muslim extremism? That is where I want this to go. I'm not looking for people to agree with me, I am listening for new ideas.

 

[Puckstop31]

I don't think we should 'blame' an uncivilized country on a religion. There are plenty of countries out there who are civilized and an Islamic country at the same time. (Turkey for example.) Sure, there are conflicts between (my) country and Turkey at the moment due to race, but I have been to Turkey and it seemed *normal*.

Here we go....

I wonder why Turkey and other such nations are then so very different? Honest question.

 

[GipsyQueen]

Here we go....

I wonder why Turkey and other such nations are then so very different? Honest question.

Maybe because these nations have applied themselves to change. Turkey (just as an example - I have nothing against them, just the first country that came to mind ) Is trying get into the European Uninon which calls for a change. That need for change can be 'blamed' on those countries part of the EU because we think differently than them - our way not always being the best way. I think 'we' (as westerners) and nations with other beliefs need to start being able to accept eachother. THIS does not mean accepting something like killing a women because of a teddy bear. This means accepting their traditions first of all and accepting their faith. They need to do the same.

 

[sparks19]

Introverted outlook.

Is it not just Canada and the US

You'll find that a lot of European countries have far far better laws regarding animals welfare.

Not all, granted. But then the US hardly has a shining record.

Really? In all that I said you can only pick out one sentence to comment on?

And spare me your condescending eyerolling...

I said the US and Canada because that is what most of this board is comprised of AND because those are the laws that I know. I will not guess at what your laws are. But I have heard from many australians who think it is perfectly fine to breed without bettering the breed because that is their belief and they don't nessecarily have the animal control problems that we do here. cultural difference if you will. YET time and time again I see people jump down their throats because THEY believe you shouldn't breed dogs and cats because they are overpopulated etc etc... even though that may not be the case in Australia.

Same as the Amish and mennonites.... they are generalized as puppy millers even though only a small percentage of them are... and it is nothing but a cultural difference. they don't see it as wrong because to many of them animals are for working and other such things. Yet many people look down upon them and generalize all Amish and Mennonites as puppy millers.

See we are all a little guilty of generalizing a group of people even if you want to deny that you ever have. Yet I don't see anyone saying that ALL Islam is like that.... I think that is what some of you are CHOOSING to take it as. And really until we are going to read an entire post instead of just picking out a sentence here and there that we can twist and manipulate to suit our purposes.... this discussion is totally pointless.

 

[MelissaCato]

All I hear is typical us versus 'them', which is ridiculous. Islam is a varying religion with different sects and differing beliefs- some more strict than others.

If you read the Quran and Hadith(s) you will see your "typical us versus 'them'"... isn't so, actually it's THEM versus all non-Muslims and Muslims themselves..of course the Muslim versus Muslim is in moderation to an extent. This OP's topic should prove that.

To say "Islam is a varying religion with different sects and differing beliefs- some more strict than others", is like saying some Christians don't celebrate Christmas. I find that funny, because I don't know one Church who doesn't celebrate the birth of Jesus. Jihad is no different, it's in the Quran and Hadith(s) and I'm sure they all except it. The only moderation I see is the Muslims that silence themselves when questioned ... but of course what else could they do?

The only way I can see Jihad (Mujahideen) not being practiced by some Muslims is if they go against the Prophet Muhammed, IE: they reject his teachings. But.. that would be like not believing in the birth of Jesus and calling yourself a Christian.

 

[Gempress]

To say "Islam is a varying religion with different sects and differing beliefs- some more strict than others", is like saying some Christians don't celebrate Christmas.

Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate Christmas. And yes, they are Christian.

I think Laurelin meant that even within a faith, there are divisions. Lumping all Muslims together is like saying that all Christians send prayers to the Virgin Mary.

 

[noludoru]

Wasn't it the children in her class who wanted the bear to be named Mohammed? And the teacher was only the one who let them name that? Would all of those who think that such severe punishment is ok if it was being applied to the children too?

Side note, thankfully the teacher will not be killed.

I don't remember that in the story, but I do remember it being mentioned in this thread.

In answer to your question, if indeed it is the case that the children named the bear (which IMO is CUTE! It's high praise to Mohammad when kids want to name their stuffie after him) I doubt those that wanted her lashed would have also had the children punished in the same manner--if at all.

 

[sparks19]

I don't remember that in the story, but I do remember it being mentioned in this thread.

In answer to your question, if indeed it is the case that the children named the bear (which IMO is CUTE! It's high praise to Mohammad when kids want to name their stuffie after him) I doubt those that wanted her lashed would have also had the children punished in the same manner--if at all.

You don't?

It may be cute to YOU if the children name a stuffie after their prophet... but it is not cute to them. It's not "high praise to Mohammad" to them... to them it is idol worship... whether it is a child or an adult.

 

[MelissaCato]

Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate Christmas. And yes, they are Christian.

I think Laurelin meant that even within a faith, there are divisions. Lumping all Muslims together is like saying that all Christians send prayers to the Virgin Mary.

I don't see how Jehovah's Witnesses can be Christian when they deny the deity of Christ, the Trinity and of course the Holy Spirit.

Can you give me a linky please? If that's the case Christians might as well be Muslim and deny Muhammed. Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[blue]

I am talking about the single act, not the whole legal system

Empathy - yes - I can see it from their shoes. They don't KNOW anything else. Just as you're sure it snows in winter in your world.

Empathy is NOT agreement.

Im not likely to feel much empathy for the man who believes in honor killings, and has his daughter stoned to death. Im not going to feel any empathy for the group that gang raped both the man and woman for being alone together in a car. So Im sure you can see Im not going to feel very empathic over the group that calls for a womans death over a stuffed animal.

Why would you empathise with those individuals?

 

[MelissaCato]

Why would you empathise with those individuals?

Ohhh hell Blue, lets just invite them here for some java and apple pie. I'll cover up, shut up and lock up .... you just agree with them. LMAO

 

[Gempress]

Official website, including beliefs.

http://www.watchtower.org/

 

[blue]

Official website, including beliefs.

http://www.watchtower.org/

Relevant to this disscusion.

http://www.watchtower.org/e/20041215/article_02.htm

 

[darkchild16]

It's their religion, and while it's probably extreme to us - it's no more of an outrage to them than if someone erected a giant statue of god in the heart of the bible belt really.

I know this isnt really that relevent to the discussion but I have to say something being born and raised in the bible belt.

Dizzy have you ever been to the bible belt? If you had you would relize how SO untrue your statement is. Where I am from you have statues of God everywhere. They are usually outside churches too. One of the big religious landmarks in my city here-which isnt the bible belt but all the same-is a window that somehow started to rainbow and it looks like a outline of the Virgin Mary. I knwo alot of people from N. Florida who come here just to see it. It is so common the only way I relized it wasn't down here as much is that they suddenly disappeared when I moved to South Florida. Just wanted to say that.

 

[RD]

I can't have empathy for murderous behavior, no matter whose shoes it's in, no matter WHY people want to kill someone. The fact that it's over something like a name for a teddy bear makes it even more disgusting to me.

I don't care what religion this is, I'd be equally disgusted if it were Christians or Buddhists doing this. It's a sick reflection of people, who think nothing of taking a life to honor something that they may (or may not have) read in a book or heard from a leader. Think for yourselves, people. I think most people, deep down, think killing is wrong.

I don't think any cultures should be forced into a more western way of life, but disagreeing with senseless murder is not ethnocentricism.

 

[GipsyQueen]

I can't have empathy for murderous behavior, no matter whose shoes it's in, no matter WHY people want to kill someone. The fact that it's over something like a name for a teddy bear makes it even more disgusting to me.

I don't care what religion this is, I'd be equally disgusted if it were Christians or Buddhists doing this. It's a sick reflection of people, who think nothing of taking a life to honor something that they may (or may not have) read in a book or heard from a leader. Think for yourselves, people. I think most people, deep down, think killing is wrong.

I don't think any cultures should be forced into a more western way of life, but disagreeing with senseless murder is not ethnocentricism.

good post =)

 

[blue]

Dizzy, do you feel empathy for the 19 9/11 attackers? How about the UK subway bombers? Or the Spain train bombers?

Do you have empathy for the killers of Daniel Pearl?

I do not feel any empathy for any abortion shooter or bomber FWIW, regaurdless of their religion.