Tail Docking ?

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happyhound

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#62
Happyhound, there's studies that go against the number of damaged tails in undocked dogs.

Think about how many other field breeds are not docked traditionally...and there is no higher damage rate in them than anywhere else. Should we just dock all breeds, because it MIGHT happen? Should we dictate what our pets look like, what body parts they are allowed to have, just because of what may possibly be a result?
I frequent several gundog/upland forums and there and people posting photos of English Pointers, Setters, et al. with bloody damaged tails are very common. People posting and looking for ways to prevent and maintain tails during hunting season are common.

Should we dictate what our pets look like, what body parts they are allowed to have, just because of what may possibly be a result?
Docks are done at young ages as preventative measures, it's not going to mentally scar them for life. If they've never had a tail, they won't miss it. They won't know the difference. They are not humans--so they surely won't be jealous of tailed dogs.

I agree! They are absolutely gorgeous, and have a bit more personality.
Oh yeah, my dog has plenty of personality. Obviously a TAIL didn't give it to him. :rolleyes:
 

boxerbaby

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#63
Tail docking and ear cropping are the first footholds for ARistas.

Next comes mandatory spay neuter and BSL restricting or eliminating certain breeds.

Just another step towards their ultimate goal of no domestic animals.

I will fight for my right to dock, and for the right of others to crop if they so desire, until my last breath.

The government has NO BUSINESS meddling in my personal dog affairs.
I agree with ya! They should worry about some puupy mill dogs living in filth having more puppies before the last ones are weaned, not worry about a dog having a tail docked.

is docking tails and cropping ears really that big of an issue for some of you that you need to spend your time, and gov't time and money on this?? Aren't there bigger fish to fry? I mean the midwest is still a disgusting pool of puppy mills, what's being done to stop them? Not much.

I personally don't like Docked tails, but who am I to say that someone needs to stop doing it? Its not maiming, its not killing its not abusing the animal. It's done when they are very young. It can hardly be considered even minor surgery. It has no lasting effects on the dog other than how it looks. Its done by professionals and by people that love and care for their animals better than most, so what's the deal? Why does everyone find it so necessary to stick their noses into someone else's business all the time?? I"m sure there are a few things in your own lives that need cleaning up and your energy would be better spent on yourself instead of some one else.
Some people have nothing better to do then worry about other peoples busines and try and force their beliefs and oppinions on others. You don't like docking so there fore you don't do it, that's awesome, but you tell other people what they should do, even better

i do not think docking or cropping should be outlawed as this would make people try to do it on there own. I also do not think it is necassary for a house pet to have these done to them. It's sorta like when i was a kid my mom making me have a nose job because she liked small noses better than big ones. As far as docking goes i don't really know how that is done but i understand they di it very young so maybe it does not cause pain i don't know about that one. As far as cropping goes it does not seem like there is any good reason to do it.
That is a point I was going to bring up. I CAN dock a tail, I also know how to neuter bulls, or remove dew claws. I would rather a vet did it, but being an ol farm girl, I know how. I would too. If I couldn't have my dogs tail done, I would just do it myself. How many others out there would end up doing it, I don't think puppy mill dogs should have some owner just chopping it off them and leaving them in their own filth, a lot more issues will arise then. Atleast I know how it's done. Others don't they will end up just putting an elastic on their dogs tail. That's a better I dea, right?

Oh the cosmetology!!
:rolleyes:

I agree! They are absolutely gorgeous, and have a bit more personality. ;) :D
Yes, all their personality must be in their tail, cut it off and your dog won't have any personality:rolleyes:
I must say, that dog (rotty with the tail) is one of the ugliest mutt wannabes I have ever seen, sorry.

Happyhound, there's studies that go against the number of damaged tails in undocked dogs.

Think about how many other field breeds are not docked traditionally...and there is no higher damage rate in them than anywhere else. Should we just dock all breeds, because it MIGHT happen? Should we dictate what our pets look like, what body parts they are allowed to have, just because of what may possibly be a result?
I have seen SO many bloody stumps of broken tails when I worked at the shelter. They repetedly banged the tails on their kennels, it was so sad to see. Some working dogs are kenneled and that is a bigger risk then not. Not to mention what they can do while they are in the fields.
Oh chinchow, who are YOU to tell some one thay can't because you don't? You don't like it don't do it, but you have no bussiness telling some one THEY are wrong because you don't like it.

Mabey some one will think it is more natural for a dog to have balls. They were born with them and some people decided they like a dog better with out the natural balls they came with, mabey it should be outlawed for people to take that body part away from them. That is invasive and changes their personalities. I think some people should worry about whats going on in their own lives and stay out of others.
 

bubbatd

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#64
To each his own ..... people are so used to seeing " perfect " show dogs....they want to duplicate ...... even though they don't hunt or have their dog perform in the areas that ears or tails were docked for a reason . Most want their AKC registered dog to look like one .
 

chinchow

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#65
WOW.
NOTICE the wink face at the end of my Rottweiler statement, it was sort of like a play on words. If you didn't catch that, then open your eyes, a lot.

And sorry, but as far as cutting a dogs tail off for tradition, or because it *might* get hurt, doesn't fly with me when there are studies to show that the number of tail injuries did not increase (in traditionally docked breeds, and in mutts) compared to the same amount of the same dogs bred for the same purposes as the ones who were docked in the same study.

Not to mention, I do not need to make my pet look the way i want it to, I'm happy with the way my dogs are. I don't need to take any body parts away so that the rest of society knows what it is. I'm not shallow, I know there are easy simple ways of preventing tail injuries, and I also believe in breaking cruel traditions. Especially considering docking came around because people thought it cured/prevented diseases, HA.
 

chinchow

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#66


Yep, just a bunch of mutt wannabe's huh? Amazing working and show dogs, but really, they are just trying to be mutts.



"Look ma, neither one of us have tail injuries, and we herd!"

I fail to see how a dog that looks they way it was born to look like, looks like anything else. There's too much proof that docking is pointless without actual medical reasoning.
 

chinchow

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#70
The studies, laws, health risks, pictures, veterinary standpoints are all on the site that I linked to the first three times.

if you bother reading through, you might learn a lot. maybe some ethics as well?

This thread is on docking but I can offer great ones that give good reasons why cropping is useless as well. The health issue argument rarely stands up for anything anymore.

Im sure if a small risk of injury or a pointless tradition ran in your family that stated you needed a body part removed that you were born with just to be accepted, you'd oppose that as well. Just because we're talking about dogs doesn't make it any more admirable.
 

happyhound

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#71
if you bother reading through, you might learn a lot. maybe some ethics as well?
Maybe if your posts consisted of less mindless drivel and attacking folks who disagree with you ... I might just be able to make it through them. You sound like a loony PETA activist in your posts.
 

boxerbaby

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#72
WOW.
NOTICE the wink face at the end of my Rottweiler statement, it was sort of like a play on words. If you didn't catch that, then open your eyes, a lot.

And sorry, but as far as cutting a dogs tail off for tradition, or because it *might* get hurt, doesn't fly with me when there are studies to show that the number of tail injuries did not increase (in traditionally docked breeds, and in mutts) compared to the same amount of the same dogs bred for the same purposes as the ones who were docked in the same study.

Not to mention, I do not need to make my pet look the way i want it to, I'm happy with the way my dogs are. I don't need to take any body parts away so that the rest of society knows what it is. I'm not shallow, I know there are easy simple ways of preventing tail injuries, and I also believe in breaking cruel traditions. Especially considering docking came around because people thought it cured/prevented diseases, HA.

I noticed the ;) Did you notice my:rolleyes:
I couldn't care less if it doesn't fly with you, who are you are you so special I should care?
I am glad you are happy with the way they look great I'm shallow and your not, yippy, you win the award of the day:rolleyes: If you don't like it don't do it, know one said to do it did they? But you ARE telling others not to do it because you don't like it. It would be like me saying that you should be cause I do. Grow up sweety this isn't pre-scool, we don't all have to do what the spoilt brat wants to do.
You don't have any right (any of you) saying I won't do it and it should be out lawed because I don't find any use for it. I don't like it so wah!I am sure there isn't much use for you but no one is doing a way with you.
And yes, those rotts look like a mutt, I can get 2 that look just like that at the pound for about $50 a piece (it would probley do as good in a show too:lol-sign:)
 

Brandyb

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#74
Wow, this was an interesting conversation on different view points, however, I think some people have taken others statements to mean that they are forcing their opinion ... which really doesn't read like that.
Chinchow, I'm in agreement with you on this. In the years I've been around dogs, I have yet to see a damaged tail from enviroment - behaviour problems, well thats a different story. Lets just think for a minute about wild dogs, wolves, coyotes, foxes and other ferral canids. I'm not saying that dogs are the same creatures, but these guys all live in some pretty harsh conditions, and they seem to get around just fine with their tails.
I don't think Chinchow is trying to force her/his (sorry I'm fairly new and don't know many people on here) opinion on everyone, rather just making a case for one side, as some of you are making a case for the other.
However, in my own (researched) opinon i see that many people just like to follow with tradition, and do not like change ... which is fine, sometimes change is hard, and some standards would have to be slightly modified if docking, cropping were banned.
As I said in my previous post, I can handle the dock ... would rather have a full tail, but am not so against that. But the crop, on the other hand, can be rather cruel, and is a full surgery, and I just don't understand why someone would want to put such a young pup through a procedure like that just for looks. I have first hand knowledge of the crop, specifically the medium to long (show) crop of the doberman. Infection can set in, stiches need to be removed, ear infections happen alot due to the lack of air circulation in the ear cannal, depending on how the ears are taped, not to mention the task of taping, trying to get a naturally floppy ear to stand, there is pain afterwards and associated with the proceedure etc. etc. I do realize that some crops are easier, free standing crops than others (ie. the pit/staffie crop or the cane corso crop as opposed to the dane or dobbie crop), but I still see this procedure as unnessessary and somewhat cruel. Not that I'm telling any of you not to do it, just want to reiderate that this is only my opinion.
And a funny fact is, many regular folks think that dobermans (and I would imagine other breeds as well) ears come erect. There are a lot of people ignorant to the cropping proceedure, and I had tons of questions as to why my dobes ears were taped, whats wrong with them, don't they come standing straight up etc etc. Just an odd observation, and I guess may be a reason why a lot of people go along with it because they don't know any different/or better.
Oh well, JMO and not meant to offend anyone. :D
 

Maxy24

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#75
This thread is starting to make me angry watching people go into defense mode over tail docking. In my opinion it should not be outlawed and if you have a working dog it is a good thing to have done if you are worried about injury. If your dog does not work i don't see it as necessary but if you want to dock your dogs tail go ahead. Unless there is a high chance of problems then i don't see huge problems with it but i don't see any reason for it to be done either. There is no benefit in having it done if your dog does not work but there are also very few risks in having it done so it is not a HUGE deal.
Personally i love the look of any dog with a long tail and don't think the Rottie looks like a mutt, he looks like a Rottie with a tail, he does not look like there is anything other than Rottie in him, you don't say OMG look at him even though everything about his body looks like a Rottie he's the size of a Rottie and even has the temperament of a Rottie, look at the size of that tail, there has to be another breed in there somewhere. If all you have to do is put your hand over his tail in the picture and he looks like a purebred again then he does not look like a mutt you just are not used to seeing the natural tail.(i love mutts by the way, would never have anything else).
So unless there are big risks involved or it causes the dog pain then dock all you want.There is no reason to have it done except for that the human likes the look better but as far as i know there is no reason not to have it done except for that the human likes the look or does not feel the need to change their dog.
 

bubbatd

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#76
No need for any name calling . Opinions , are opinions. I doubt if anyone here who has a dog with altered ears or tails will say , gee, next dog I get , I'll let it be natural ....and vis-versus .
 

MafiaPrincess

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#77
I've found unless the standard allows natural and docked you won't find a good breeder who won't dock. If you wanted a puppy, even put down a deposit, and later change your mind, it will be likely hard to sell that un docked puppy. Plus the decision would have to be made so early on.. that a pup could be a show prospect and wasn't docked.

I can see people wanting natural, but unless a breeder doesn't dock ever, it's a possible problem for them to be having to pick one pup for someone so early on.
 

chinchow

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#78
Maybe if your posts consisted of less mindless drivel and attacking folks who disagree with you ... I might just be able to make it through them. You sound like a loony PETA activist in your posts.
Actually, I hate PeTA with a passion. I'm just ethical. And I never once attacked anyone. The question was asked, and I answered, and presented a case for my answer. If that is attacking, everyone in the world should be silenced. Including you. If you do not want to look at the facts, then that is your problem. But do not call the facts "mindless drivel".


I am glad you are happy with the way they look great I'm shallow and your not, yippy, you win the award of the day If you don't like it don't do it, know one said to do it did they? But you ARE telling others not to do it because you don't like it. It would be like me saying that you should be cause I do. Grow up sweety this isn't pre-scool, we don't all have to do what the spoilt brat wants to do.
You don't have any right (any of you) saying I won't do it and it should be out lawed because I don't find any use for it. I don't like it so wah!I am sure there isn't much use for you but no one is doing a way with you.
I'd love to see where I attacked people saying "DONT EVER DO THIS NO DONT YOU'RE IDIOTS". But, if someone ASKS MY OPINION on it, which they did indeed since this thread was not directed at any one person, I will answer, and have reasons for my answer beyond the fact that I "don't like it". Thank you for concerning yourself so highly with me, though.

And yes, if the government finally does outlaw comestic surgery for an ANIMAL, then I have every right just as much as the next person to say it shouldn't be done. And I will if that day comes here.

In my opinion it should not be outlawed and if you have a working dog it is a good thing to have done if you are worried about injury.
Look at all the working breeds in the world, not that many of them are docked. And how do you explain that one herding breed is docked, but another isn't? Just makes no sense. If it were for true working purposes, and there was high injury, then they would all be docked. And unfortunately, some idiots cut off the tails of cattle dogs, who use them as a rudder, because they are afraid the tail will get stepped on, which is just a little weird, since cattle dog tails are not very long, and they do not creep on the ground.

Oh well, JMO and not meant to offend anyone.
I didn't either, and I as you said, was making a clear cut case for my side of this. I don't remember where in the rules it says I'm not allowed to do that. :D


Either way, I presented the information which has actually opened up a lot of minds and made a lot of people realize these procedures are simply for looks, and are in essence unnessecary if not for a true medical reason.

I've owned a couple of docked breeds, and I got some of them from breeders. None of them had their tails cut off. The one dog whos tail I had to have amputated was an APBT, and that was because another dog came right up and started getting aggressive with her, and her tail ended up getting mangled. Even if she were to ever wag it again, it'd have chucnks missing out of it, and nerve damage, and the wounds would probably never heal properly. It was really our only option.
 

noludoru

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#79
Tail docking and ear cropping are the first footholds for ARistas.

Next comes mandatory spay neuter and BSL restricting or eliminating certain breeds.

Just another step towards their ultimate goal of no domestic animals.

I will fight for my right to dock, and for the right of others to crop if they so desire, until my last breath.

The government has NO BUSINESS meddling in my personal dog affairs.
I agree!!

Now to contribute to our lovely discussion:
Docking: My opinion on docking is full approval, if done correctly. My definition of correctly: within the breed standard and not in a way that would cause permanent harm to the dog. I'm a Dobie-lover who has admired Rotties and Boxers from afar, and I have to say, I hate undocked tails on all but the Rotties. The pics of them with the tails were adorable, I know it doesn't take away from their appearance at all! (Not that it adds to their appearance or their personality. <wink> ) Boxers and Dobies have thin, longish tails that are prone to injury, sweeping of tables, and bruising of others. I've seen injured tails, I know how hard loads of them are to heal, and I've dealt with a tail injury before--it was not fun. So, if I bred a litter or puppies that were traditionally of a docked breed, I would dock their tails.

Cropping: Cropping? Well, my opinion is a little bit different. I love how cropped ears look on just about any breed, however, since it is a surgery just to make the dog look "nicer" I'm not going to jump at it. It's classy, it gives Dobes that "look." Surprisingly, I also love how uncropped ears look! I like how you can really pet their ears and give them proper ear-rubs. In Dobermans the uncropped look is much softer, most people don't even recognize an uncropped dog for a Dobe. So, if I ever get a puppy--I'm not going to crop its ears. Why? Many reasons. I like both looks, cropping is a costly operation that requires lots of patience and aftercare for ears that may not even stand, and my most important reason: I won't pierce my own ears--I wont stick one tiny, measly little hole in them--so why would I chop off quite a bit of my dog's ears?
 

Miakoda

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#80
I have seen SO many bloody stumps of broken tails when I worked at the shelter.
Hm. Not only have I worked at a busy shelter/Animal Control, but I work at the largest vet clinic in the state (2nd only to LSU Vet School) & I have yet to see all these "many" dogs with bloody stumps for tails. In 5 years of working that this vet clinic, we've only had to amputate 1 tail due to injury from "happy tail syndrome".

And I'm curious, by the sound of your statement you would be for the docking of tails on all breeds?
 
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