Surprising

[stevinski]

While looking through sheltie show results this year i've noticed alot of the dogs/bitches entered into the shows werent bred by parents with Ch's,
and i found that in the latest show 4 days ago out of 188 dogs tht turned up, only 1 bitch and 1 dog had titled parents.

i mean, while looking for a show prospect, i'm putting parents titled with CH at the top of my list of standards for my breeder,
but on the bright side i saw tht the breeder i'm looking into bred one of the dogs tht had titled parents.

i was just wondering what you guys opinions were about this?

 

[tempura tantrum]

While I definitely look for Champion-titled parents, it is not the be-all-end-all for me. A lot of different factors can go into whether or not a particular dog has obtained a CH. and when searching for a breeder, it's best to look at the bigger picture.

I like to see what the whole breeding program is like, rather than focus purely on the dogs I believe will be my pup's parents. In my case, I was satisfied with the fact that the majority of the breeder's dogs were titled. I liked that she did OFA and CERF on all of her breeding stock. That she required spay-neuter contracts on her pets, and offered a slight discount if owners showed proof of completing obedience classes with a qualified instructor. I also noticed that she had bred several best in specialty winners as well.

When talking to your breeder, don't hesitate to ask *why* they chose a particular match. Good breeders most definitely have a rhyme or reason to why they breed two particular dogs. It may just be the fact that an unfinished dog is the best match to a particular dam or stud. In my case, each of my dogs had one unfinished parent at the time of breeding. However, looking at the pedigrees, I wasn't worried. Tai's unfinished parent was nevertheless a registry of merit dam, who was the daughter of a registry of merit dam. His champion father was the number one Shiba on the west coast in 1999. Kimi's sire was unfinished at the time of breeding (he became a champion several months later), but her dam was the only black and tan Shiba bitch to take a best of opposite sex from the classes at a National Specialty.

People that work their dogs in performance events as well as conformation may breed unfinished dogs on occasion. The same goes for people with very heavily-coated dogs. In a breed like Shelties, the very GOOD lines mature slowly, with dogs only really starting to win at 5-6 years of age. (Very young dogs just drowning in coat may win earlier, but I would steer clear of those lines).

While I'm certainly not suggesting that you dive right in and buy a puppy from a breeder who has NO champions, I do think that it's perfectly acceptable to buy a puppy from someone who occasionally breeds unfinished dogs. Get a feel for the reason they chose to do a particular breeding. It's a good way to decide if their breeding philosophy is one you can support.

 

[Gempress]

I would trust a show potential dog with non-champion parents if it was being bred by a reputable breeder who had other champion dogs. A breeder like that would be familiar enough with the breed to know what would make an outstanding dog.

For example, my mother's maltese is from a very reputable kennel. There were many champion dogs, and the owner was also a professional handler as well as a breeder (she was handling the maltese in Crufts this year!). There was a maltese at the kennel that had no titles, yet was being bred. I forget what the circumstances were, but this little female was unable to finish her championship. Yet she still produced many show-quality puppies. I think that when the breeder is obviously knowledgeable, they would be able to determine quality without a title.

But a disclaimer: I think every other maltese this breeder owned was a champion at least, and she had several international champions as well. I wouldn't trust a breeder who had just one champion, then went straight on to breeding with a bunch of untitled dogs.

 

[Bailey+Ralph]

With everything i have read here about dogs needing CH to be bred........I didn't think that you could "Show" a dog whos parents weren't titled

 

[Gempress]

You can basically show any registered dog that isn't spayed or neutered. Whether or not you'll actually win is a completely different story.

 

[stevinski]

While I definitely look for Champion-titled parents, it is not the be-all-end-all for me. A lot of different factors can go into whether or not a particular dog has obtained a CH. and when searching for a breeder, it's best to look at the bigger picture.

I like to see what the whole breeding program is like, rather than focus purely on the dogs I believe will be my pup's parents. In my case, I was satisfied with the fact that the majority of the breeder's dogs were titled. I liked that she did OFA and CERF on all of her breeding stock. That she required spay-neuter contracts on her pets, and offered a slight discount if owners showed proof of completing obedience classes with a qualified instructor. I also noticed that she had bred several best in specialty winners as well.

When talking to your breeder, don't hesitate to ask *why* they chose a particular match. Good breeders most definitely have a rhyme or reason to why they breed two particular dogs. It may just be the fact that an unfinished dog is the best match to a particular dam or stud. In my case, each of my dogs had one unfinished parent at the time of breeding. However, looking at the pedigrees, I wasn't worried. Tai's unfinished parent was nevertheless a registry of merit dam, who was the daughter of a registry of merit dam. His champion father was the number one Shiba on the west coast in 1999. Kimi's sire was unfinished at the time of breeding (he became a champion several months later), but her dam was the only black and tan Shiba bitch to take a best of opposite sex from the classes at a National Specialty.

People that work their dogs in performance events as well as conformation may breed unfinished dogs on occasion. The same goes for people with very heavily-coated dogs. In a breed like Shelties, the very GOOD lines mature slowly, with dogs only really starting to win at 5-6 years of age. (Very young dogs just drowning in coat may win earlier, but I would steer clear of those lines).

While I'm certainly not suggesting that you dive right in and buy a puppy from a breeder who has NO champions, I do think that it's perfectly acceptable to buy a puppy from someone who occasionally breeds unfinished dogs. Get a feel for the reason they chose to do a particular breeding. It's a good way to decide if their breeding philosophy is one you can support.

I am looking for alot of different things in my future breeder, but at the moment the first thing that i look at is whether the parents are titled, then i look at health testing, then i look into the breeder further.

I most certainly wouldnt get a show prospect puppy from untitled parents, i have to require tht atleast the dam have a Ch and the Sire being way on his way to getting his Ch, i also require tht the parents be active in agility or obediance.

The breeder i'm looking at atm has a good history, and i'm in the process of researching his lines and previous litters and how they av placed, etc.
i'm also looking for any health defects in the line.

the breeder i'm looking into atm has

U.K. Top Breeder for 1998
U.K. Top Brood Bitch for 1998
U.K. Top Breeder for 1999
U.K. Top Puppy for 1999
U.K. Top Brood Bitch for 1999
U.K. Runner-up to Top Dog for 1999
U.K Top Breeder for 2000
U.K Top Brood Bitch 2000

but the kennel has since joined with another top uk sheltie kennel, so i'm researching that line as well.

 

[tempura tantrum]

I would consider health and temperament first and foremost in my opinion. A puppy with champion parents that is unsound, or temperamentally unstable is heartbreaking as a pet, and absolutely useless as a showdog or eventual breeding stock (if you're looking into breeding or eventually using this pup as your foundation).

I've been showing dogs long enough to know that a kennel just bursting with champions *may* or *may not* be the sign of a superlative program. There are plenty of programs out there now that are coasting off of a well-established name from many years ago, and not much else. They're producing a lot of puppies, and those puppies are winning, but they aren't that healthy.

Please don't take this as a sign that I don't value a breeding program that wins, however! My own breeder is currently the top Shiba breeder in the nation. She owns the top brood bitch in the nation, and the top stud dog of all time. She has multiple group, BIS, Westminster BOB, and BISS show winners as well. She was also the president of the National breed club at one time, and before she was in Shibas she worked with Lhasas (she had the top winning Lhasa of all time several years ago).

Nevertheless, the thing I was most impressed with was the fact that after importing a Shiba bitch for over $45,000 from Japan, and finding one of her knees to be slightly suspect, she promptly spayed her and placed her in a pet home. This said to me that she valued the long term in her breeding program. She was willing to lose a great deal of ground in the present to protect the future. With a person that makes such decisions, I was willing to make a bet that I could trust her occasional use of an unfinished dog here or there. She knew what she was doing.

It looks to me like you know what you want in a program- I like that you're wanting parents that are working in agility or obedience, and researching lines for health defects is definitely a wise choice. I have no doubts that you're very well prepared for your future show dog!

 

[wolfsoul]

I don't look at the dog --- I look at what the dog produces. Often times, a not-so-nice looking dog will produce gorgeous puppies. You don't breed a dog, you breed a dog's lines.

 

[stevinski]

You don't breed a dog, you breed a dog's lines.

thts not always the best way of looking at things,
from every litter only a couple are show worthy, and quite often you can get dogs from amazing lines tht are not of perfect standard,

i personally think that looking at parents is just as important as looking at the lines and what the dogs have previosuly produced.

 

[lakotasong]

I don't look at the dog --- I look at what the dog produces. Often times, a not-so-nice looking dog will produce gorgeous puppies. You don't breed a dog, you breed a dog's lines.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

I don't look at the dog --- I look at what the dog produces. Often times, a not-so-nice looking dog will produce gorgeous puppies. You don't breed a dog, you breed a dog's lines.

A wise breeder will be looking at every aspect before a breeding.

Most of the time a dog is not going to produce (phenotypically) what it does not have.

Line breeding can increase your chances of uniformity in a litter, but for me, you must look at the lines, yes, but the actual dogs are the most important aspect of the equation for me.

 

[stevinski]

I don't look at the dog --- I look at what the dog produces. Often times, a not-so-nice looking dog will produce gorgeous puppies. You don't breed a dog, you breed a dog's lines.

i wouldnt breed a poor example of the breed, just because it had good lines.

and you wouldnt be able to title a poor example of the breed, so i wouldnt breed the dog anyway

 

[OutlineACDs]

The key word in your post was "Sheltie" a friend of mine shows shelties. And has been showing for a good 6 years. She STILL hasn't finished a dog yet. Her bitch is lacking two single points in AKC. All of her dogs have at least ONE Ch. titled parent, and MANY Ch's in the second third and fourth generations etc. It is HARDER to finish certain breeds of dogs. Especially one as popular as shelties. It takes 4 bitches to make ONE point, where in most breeds it takes only 2. If Im not mistaken, in this area it takes 12-14 to make two points and close to 20 to make a 3pt major. A lot of sheltie breeders will breed a bitch without a Ch. title and then go back and finish them later because lets face it, my friends bitch is 6 and still lacks two points. If you wait that long to breed, you would never have a litter.

 

[tempura tantrum]

That's another good point, Outline.

Shelties *are* a very competitive breed. Add to that the trials and tribulations of keeping one in coat (especially bitches who come into their heat cycles), and you've got a dog that's very hard to finish. This is one of those breeds where all the stars need to align for you to finish the dog. I come from a double-coated breed, and I know that my guys *always* seem to blow coat right before our next show. I can't even imagine what it would be like in Shelties! I know of a few people from other boards that are in Shelties, and they have mentioned that their dogs (who come from slow-to mature lines), won't be *truly* competitive until they are 3-5 years of age. So as Outline said, you're probably seeing fewer champions than you would expect due to this.

Keep us updated on your puppy search- it's always fun to browse the photos!

 

[stevinski]

It takes 4 bitches to make ONE point, where in most breeds it takes only 2.

can you explain this too me please, i dont quite understand.

If Im not mistaken, in this area it takes 12-14 to make two points and close to 20 to make a 3pt major

can you explain this too me too please cause i dont understand this either

A lot of sheltie breeders will breed a bitch without a Ch.

you can breed a bitch without there CH but some breeders choose to wait, its not uncommon for bitches to die while giving birth or something to happen so the bitch would have to be spayed, etc.
Many responsible breeders dont take this chance as if anything did happen, they would have put all that time and money into the dog for her to be spayed or die without achieving her CH

Keep us updated on your puppy search- it's always fun to browse the photos!

i will definetly keep you guys informed, it will probably be another year before i really settle for a kennel as i am doin way to much research into them then i probably need to,
it will be much longer before i probably actually get the puppy, but i dont mind waiting because i want to get it right

 

[tempura tantrum]

Stevinski- am I correct in saying that you're in the UK?

What she's referring to is the AKC's point system. Depending on the popularity of a given breed in different parts of the country, you may have to beat more or less representatives of your breed to make a "major." In the AKC you need 15 points total to win a championship. Anywhere from 3-5 points is considered a "major" (meaning you beat a sizeable amount of dogs), and you need two majors under two different judges in order to fulfill all the requirements.

As a rule, dogs generally need more animals in competition than bitches to make a major.

Shibas are quite popular in the the northwest, so my girl Kimi must beat more bitches than say, a Shiba in the midwest. Conversely, it takes an *obscene* number of dogs to make a major in Labradors just about ANYWHERE because they're an incredibly popular breed all over the country.

I don't believe the UK has the same sort of system (and please excuse my mistake if you are not in fact based there )

 

[stevinski]

you are correct i am based in the uk, i was wondering what you meant lol

thanks for explaining things!

 

[OutlineACDs]

you can breed a bitch without there CH but some breeders choose to wait, its not uncommon for bitches to die while giving birth or something to happen so the bitch would have to be spayed, etc.
Many responsible breeders dont take this chance as if anything did happen, they would have put all that time and money into the dog for her to be spayed or die without achieving her CH

Its not the dying part you really have to worry about. Although it is always a possiblity with breeding. Breeding a maiden bitch when they are 6 years old is difficult. They are less fertile. I was going to spay my bitch if she did not take on the last breeding because she is 4 (will be 5 in September) and she was getting too old to be having her first litter. If she had already had a successful litter as a younger dog I wouldn't have been worried, but as the years go by it is harder and harder to breed a maiden bitch without difficulty. As it was my bitch did end up losing one puppy and having a c-section.