suggestions/advice from trainers
- Thread starter Jynx
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snarky?
I just was trying to clairfy. You were the one who said that Red's post was unclear. If you repeat what the last 10 posters have said then why post? There are no 'requirements' in that sense. It does make you look like you don't bother to read other peoples posts though. In which case you didn't. Personally I read the other posts so that way if the topic has changed or the OP has came back and asked a new question I don't look silly
. And that way I can give more specific and useful advice.
I just was trying to clairfy. You were the one who said that Red's post was unclear. If you repeat what the last 10 posters have said then why post? There are no 'requirements' in that sense. It does make you look like you don't bother to read other peoples posts though. In which case you didn't. Personally I read the other posts so that way if the topic has changed or the OP has came back and asked a new question I don't look silly
. And that way I can give more specific and useful advice.( done blow drying dogs..)
I have had several times dogs come into my classes, having been in other classes with trainers and owners that had no clue we had to go back to square one.
Frequently I have put a dog that suffered a trama in my " older seasoned, more trained classes". While they may not know what is being taught- the fact is the dog learns being around other dogs is okay and from there, I can put them where the dog belongs.
The last class that just finished had a border collie that was " jumped" by a lab mix breed in another class ( obviously not taught by me), and scared of other dogs. I put her in my adult classes with owners I knew, dogs I knew and sure enough the dog got over their fear of other dogs.
Some trainers have no clue what they are doing. Dont know the owners, the dogs nor do they know when the dogs are able to be off lead.
I am making the statement you need someone that knows what the heck they are doing- able to read the class, the dogs, the owners and when next steps fit the situation. Not to mention know the breeds involved. And adult sighthound for example is going to be offended with a " whatever the day" care type golden or boisterious dog. As a trainer we match our classes, the owners, the breed type. Example- I would not put a chihuahua pup in a class with say great dane pups.. Maybe its just second nature to me, but really- as stated = my advice here is to get a trainer that knows what they heck they are doing..
I do not understand when the dog was " jumped" why the trainer did not step in. To show the owner of the dog that jumped how to correct, correct the dog that did "jump" the other dog, and help the OP understand what happened.
Hardly a good trainer to me.
I have had several times dogs come into my classes, having been in other classes with trainers and owners that had no clue we had to go back to square one.
Frequently I have put a dog that suffered a trama in my " older seasoned, more trained classes". While they may not know what is being taught- the fact is the dog learns being around other dogs is okay and from there, I can put them where the dog belongs.
The last class that just finished had a border collie that was " jumped" by a lab mix breed in another class ( obviously not taught by me), and scared of other dogs. I put her in my adult classes with owners I knew, dogs I knew and sure enough the dog got over their fear of other dogs.
Some trainers have no clue what they are doing. Dont know the owners, the dogs nor do they know when the dogs are able to be off lead.
I am making the statement you need someone that knows what the heck they are doing- able to read the class, the dogs, the owners and when next steps fit the situation. Not to mention know the breeds involved. And adult sighthound for example is going to be offended with a " whatever the day" care type golden or boisterious dog. As a trainer we match our classes, the owners, the breed type. Example- I would not put a chihuahua pup in a class with say great dane pups.. Maybe its just second nature to me, but really- as stated = my advice here is to get a trainer that knows what they heck they are doing..
I do not understand when the dog was " jumped" why the trainer did not step in. To show the owner of the dog that jumped how to correct, correct the dog that did "jump" the other dog, and help the OP understand what happened.
Hardly a good trainer to me.
sometimes reiterating what has been said can help solidify a position. There's no way I'm going to help someone get over aggression problems over the internet, because they are describing things the way they see them, which isn't always the way I'd see them, or the way you might see it if you were there.
Given that, and that I'd approach different sorts of aggression in different manners, not big differences, but some sublte ones none the less, and what I'd do, and how that message gets interpreted by the person on the other side of the screen usually aren't close to the same, I generally don't give a lot of advice, especially when "aggression" is the problem. Bring the dog to me, I can probably have things cleared up pretty quickly.
But one thing is for sure, regardless of if there was a problem now or not, I would not be going to that class. I do have shepherds and dogs with drive are a blast to train.
Given that, and that I'd approach different sorts of aggression in different manners, not big differences, but some sublte ones none the less, and what I'd do, and how that message gets interpreted by the person on the other side of the screen usually aren't close to the same, I generally don't give a lot of advice, especially when "aggression" is the problem. Bring the dog to me, I can probably have things cleared up pretty quickly.
But one thing is for sure, regardless of if there was a problem now or not, I would not be going to that class. I do have shepherds and dogs with drive are a blast to train.
This is very true, coming from my experience with Anko. The click to calm approach is a very effective way of getting them over their reactiveness. She went from lunging and snarling at other dogs on walks, to being able to happily play with a few well behaved dogs and ignore others on walks. She was a GSD, a rescue but several Sch people told us she looked and acted all DDR lines, so yes she was drivey. My aunt also rescued a Sch washout from west german lines, both parents SchIII. She had essentially been ruined by harsh training as a very young pup, was very fear aggressive towards men and children. My aunt used the basic premise behind click to calm to desensitize Candy to kids and men. Now she LOVES them. Babies can safely crawl around her and she approaches strange friendly men to solicit loves and pets.
From what I understand, and Sch people please correct me if I am wrong, most people training a drivey working dog for PP or Sch spend the first several months of the pup's life building drive and confidence, then introduce tools like prongs when they are much older and more emotionally developed.
Just out of curiousity? Is she only acting aggressive towards humans in the classroom? That's what it sounds like. Do they have their unruly puppies with them when it happens? Or is it happening outside the class?
From what I understand, and Sch people please correct me if I am wrong, most people training a drivey working dog for PP or Sch spend the first several months of the pup's life building drive and confidence, then introduce tools like prongs when they are much older and more emotionally developed.
Just out of curiousity? Is she only acting aggressive towards humans in the classroom? That's what it sounds like. Do they have their unruly puppies with them when it happens? Or is it happening outside the class?
I don't have anything to add except that I don't think it is the training method, but how the class was managed that caused the problem. Czech/DDR lines are traditionally more defensive but that trait isn't going to manifest itself at 5 months old. This sounds more like a fear based reaction based on the bad experience the pup has had while in this class.
I agree with everyone who says to get a new trainer. The pup needs to learn positive associations with dogs and people. She doesn't need to play with them, she needs to learn that when they're nearby everything is good.
As for chasing the car, it could have been a reactive response, but if it truly was play/chase behavior, I still wouldn't correct for it. I would distract the dog and then go home and in a quiet environment I would work on teaching a leave it command. Work on basic obedience in quiet settings and add distractions slowly.
If you take her to a group class, make sure nothing is going to be a setback and don't worry too much about the obedience itself but just her being in that setting with nothing bad happening.
As for chasing the car, it could have been a reactive response, but if it truly was play/chase behavior, I still wouldn't correct for it. I would distract the dog and then go home and in a quiet environment I would work on teaching a leave it command. Work on basic obedience in quiet settings and add distractions slowly.
If you take her to a group class, make sure nothing is going to be a setback and don't worry too much about the obedience itself but just her being in that setting with nothing bad happening.
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I believe this could be defensive drives, starting to appear at that young age, and Masi not having a clue how to handle the "pressure". If she were only reacting towards other dogs, then I would have to agree with you Dan, but she is becoming defensive towards people as well. I think she needs a load of socialization right now to work her through this. Its not a training issue but more of a behavioral/genetic issue. Dogs mature at different rates and dogs with high defensive drives, and high suspicion (ddr czech), can develope those drives way too early and become overwhelmed and "lash out".
You know how to build her confidence, Diane. Good luck, and remember its 99.9% chance thats its only a phase (but she needs YOU to help her get through it).
You know how to build her confidence, Diane. Good luck, and remember its 99.9% chance thats its only a phase (but she needs YOU to help her get through it).
thank you ALL for the advice and suggestions..I am going to pull her from this class..
Just want to say a couple things,,(don't mean to overlook everyone so sorry if I miss something)...This behavior DOES only happen in the class setting. Even the couple of "people" incidents, it was people who , I don't want to say charging at her, but maybe startled her? didn't come from a "front" approach.
I DO also agree, most if not all, of these behaviors are the result of a mismanaged class setting,,I am certainly NOT against the training methods, but am rather pissed off with the lack of control and allowing of rude behaviors from others.
Just as an update,,tonite, I took her out for a long walk backroads, traffic, lots of houses, other people walking dog (and used a flat buckle collar I might add) and she was fine,,,no car lunging, we would sit/focus/treat while cars went by, and we also happen to run into someone walking a couple of small dogs (shih tzu's) I asked him from a distance if he minded me using them for a little "distraction",,he was nice, didn't mind, stayed on the opposite side of the road,,Masi was interested but not in "defense" mode AT ALL,,,his dogs actually started going wacko/barking/lunging , and I had her sit, focus, and she didn't react to the rude dogs at all...The guy was trying to shut his dogs up,,I said that's ok,,we need this kind of test)So,,THAT alone made me feel better, that right now anyhow, it seems to be the "Class" thing..
I also had a repair man in my house today, and she was totally fine with him,,(I know it was in the house she is probably comfortable here but still)...
So thank you all for your advice and suggestions..Oh and here is a picture of the 'beast'
Diane
Just want to say a couple things,,(don't mean to overlook everyone so sorry if I miss something)...This behavior DOES only happen in the class setting. Even the couple of "people" incidents, it was people who , I don't want to say charging at her, but maybe startled her? didn't come from a "front" approach.
I DO also agree, most if not all, of these behaviors are the result of a mismanaged class setting,,I am certainly NOT against the training methods, but am rather pissed off with the lack of control and allowing of rude behaviors from others.
Just as an update,,tonite, I took her out for a long walk backroads, traffic, lots of houses, other people walking dog (and used a flat buckle collar I might add
) and she was fine,,,no car lunging, we would sit/focus/treat while cars went by, and we also happen to run into someone walking a couple of small dogs (shih tzu's) I asked him from a distance if he minded me using them for a little "distraction",,he was nice, didn't mind, stayed on the opposite side of the road,,Masi was interested but not in "defense" mode AT ALL,,,his dogs actually started going wacko/barking/lunging , and I had her sit, focus, and she didn't react to the rude dogs at all...The guy was trying to shut his dogs up,,I said that's ok,,we need this kind of test)So,,THAT alone made me feel better, that right now anyhow, it seems to be the "Class" thing..I also had a repair man in my house today, and she was totally fine with him,,(I know it was in the house she is probably comfortable here but still
)...So thank you all for your advice and suggestions..Oh and here is a picture of the 'beast'
Diane
not a masi update, but a class update,,,I took my non reactive, "seasoned" aussie, and she was the 'star' of this unruly class)
I have definately dumped it with Masi, but Jynx, enjoys it, and could care less about unruly big mouth barking/lunging dogs..) Tonite was no exception to the previous class, we have a bichon who acts like a raving lunatic and wants to fight with eveyr dog in there, a golden who is a very happy boy, just VERY VERY happy),,an aussie who is also a big mouth, who the bichon attacked and they got into it,,,a siberian who is also full of energy, but seems to want to play...The trainer admitted she didn't realize she'd have so many reactive dogs in ONE class,,ahh well, Jynx is liking it and I'm still getting the benefit of the positive instruction..
diane
) I have definately dumped it with Masi, but Jynx, enjoys it, and could care less about unruly big mouth barking/lunging dogs..
) Tonite was no exception to the previous class, we have a bichon who acts like a raving lunatic and wants to fight with eveyr dog in there, a golden who is a very happy boy, just VERY VERY happy),,an aussie who is also a big mouth, who the bichon attacked and they got into it,,,a siberian who is also full of energy, but seems to want to play...The trainer admitted she didn't realize she'd have so many reactive dogs in ONE class,,ahh well, Jynx is liking it and I'm still getting the benefit of the positive instruction..diane
an update on my Masi girl....We've been out and about, to a 2 day agility trial, (where things are quite chaotic) and this girl has not reacted negatively to one thing ))
She made quite a few new NICE doggie friends, met loads of people who she 'loved' and hung out in tight quarters with some loud obnoxious dogs and could have cared less)
I'm happy I haven't "ruined" this girl and she has the wonderful capacity to bounce back from her 'not so positive' class experiences..
In the meantime,,my aussie is loving it that she took her place in class, and could care less about rude dogs)
diane
))She made quite a few new NICE doggie friends, met loads of people who she 'loved' and hung out in tight quarters with some loud obnoxious dogs and could have cared less
)I'm happy I haven't "ruined" this girl and she has the wonderful capacity to bounce back from her 'not so positive' class experiences..
In the meantime,,my aussie is loving it that she took her place in class, and could care less about rude dogs
)diane