Some Pit Education

[Gempress]

Hmmm. Never mind. I checked out your site and I only had to read one thread to find out what you mean by 'working'. Somehow I don't think that's gonna fly around here.

Maybe you can tell me why this thread seems slanted towards dog fighting, rather than against it? I cringed to read about baiting, and facing two dogs toward each other just so they'd run faster on the treadmill.

Please. Tell me you're not promoting dog fighitng over there? Maybe I'm reading that whole post wrong and if so please feel free to correct me.

ETA: I think it's pretty clear from reading THIS thread that I just found while riffiling through your forum, that you do indeed have folks that fight dogs there. Discussing how long a dog has to fight to make it "game" and what happens to the dogs if they "cur" or give up in a fight...yeah...I'm thinking there's no good way to explain away a thread like that.

The fact that no moderator or admin put a stop to the discussion makes me think you promote dog fighting, or at the very least passivly allow members to discuss the topic (members who clearly fight dogs) without making it clear that you DON'T advocate it.

OMG!! I just read those threads, Silverpaws.

THAT IS SO DISGUSTING!

For those who haven't seen them, the first thread was posted by somebody talking about the evils of dogfighting. It was followed immediately by many replies from people RIDICULING the post and saying how innacturate and untrue it was. I believe one poster said it looked like it was written by a "bleeding heart 14-year-old" or something like that.

The second thread was a person asking for some details on dogfighting. Somebody said they wouldn't get many replies on the topic in a public forum---PM the members instead!

I feel like I need to take a shower after reading that filth. Needless to say, I'm washing my hands of this post.

 

[Boemy]

I'm appalled.

 

[molena]

Before everyone jumps to conclusions, goes out and gets sick, washes their hands of this thread.... I'd just like to say a couple of things.

I'm a member of many pit bull forums, and the purpose of www.game-dog.com is really interesting and laudable IMO. It is one of the only sites which welcomes old-time gamedog people (which can include people for whom dogfighting is not unthinkable because they grew up with it and it was legal when they were young) AND "petbull" people, those who condemn dogfighting and for whom pit bulls are companion pets ... and everyone else (show, weight-pull, etc). The purpose is for everyone to learn from each other, because the history of the breed as a fighter is VERY important in learning to deal with the dogs of today. And even though sparks fly when you get these groups together, I think it is one of the most educational pit bull sites out there because real debate occurs (unlike many sites where everyone just pats each other on the back with the same knee-jerk opinions).

Now, I know that any mention of dogfighting promotes really strong responses, but the admin. of game-dog does NOT promote or encourage dogfighting, and the threads are supposed to be heavily moderated and MANY people have been banned for breaking those rules - but again, the idea is to promote open discussion within the bounds of the law for EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES. Can you really say the history of the breed should never be discussed, is irrelevant and appalling? That's fine, but then don't go listening to the animal rights folks who have never been to a dogfight, have no interest in historical accuracy, and are chock-full of misinformation. This is a place people can get some real historical facts beyond the media's sensationalism, and although many of us don't have the stomach for it, others are interested in learning. That's still (last time I checked, although maybe not for long) part of our first amendment rights.

If you choose to keep reading past the one thread, you'll see that "working" is not a euphemism for fighting, although it could include fighting. It means performance-driven activity.

 

[Gamedogs]

Because of the criteria used in the standard.

Winning body builders aren't 'healthy' by usual standards either, and they know it. They push themselves to the absolute limit in order to win a competition based on criteria which are known to be unhealthy at that level. A dog with an extremely squashed up nose - if it's a pug - may win a competition but never in its life be truly comfortable.

The question is whether one feels that the potential health and wellbeing downsides of pursuing such extreme physical features in our fellow creatures, so that humans can win competitions with them, can be justified. These dogs don't look that bad, but they appear to be pushing the boundaries.

D.

As I have already stated, I do not believe that showing a dog for conformation is very competitive at all, those dogs have never been pushed to any limit or boundary thereof, they didn't even get a bath before they went, it was actually a last second decision to even take them.

Hmmm. Never mind. I checked out your site and I only had to read one thread to find out what you mean by 'working'. Somehow I don't think that's gonna fly around here.

Maybe you can tell me why this thread seems slanted towards dog fighting, rather than against it? I cringed to read about baiting, and facing two dogs toward each other just so they'd run faster on the treadmill.

Please. Tell me you're not promoting dog fighitng over there? Maybe I'm reading that whole post wrong and if so please feel free to correct me.

ETA: I think it's pretty clear from reading THIS thread that I just found while riffiling through your forum, that you do indeed have folks that fight dogs there. Discussing how long a dog has to fight to make it "game" and what happens to the dogs if they "cur" or give up in a fight...yeah...I'm thinking there's no good way to explain away a thread like that.

The fact that no moderator or admin put a stop to the discussion makes me think you promote dog fighting, or at the very least passivly allow members to discuss the topic (members who clearly fight dogs) without making it clear that you DON'T advocate it.

LOL, my initial expectations and thoughts about this group are still proving to be right. Here is another thread for you to read: Discussion of dog fighting.

And, before you start talking about "me" or what I have said here, please read my prior posts for my definition, in its usage, of the word "working" that I have used here.

well then how do you know they're game if they haven't been fought? because you can't tell if a dog is going to be game unless you fight them, and your dog can't be "game bred" unless its parents have been fought and proven game.

my dogs are american pit bull terriers, too, and i have no idea if they're game or not, and i don't really care. i know that luce is drivey as hell, smart as a whip, and a wonderful companion, and that's what matters to me.

Lol, when did I or any one else say that my dogs were game? I have never said that and never will. I stated in the same post that I do not game test my dogs, meaning that I do not know if they are game or not, how did you get that I ever said my dogs were game?

 

[RockstarKennelz]

"...the history of the breed as a fighter is VERY important in learning to deal with the dogs of today."

Precisely. There's no erasing the history of the fighting breeds, be it APBT's, Akitas, Tosas, Shar-Peis, or any of the number of breeds that once served such purposes. Understanding that history is conducive to responsible ownership.

 

[colliewog]

(Gamedogs) Lol, when did I or any one else say that my dogs were game? I have never said that and never will. I stated in the same post that I do not game test my dogs, meaning that I do not know if they are game or not, how did you get that I ever said my dogs were game?

Maybe it's your username?

 

[Gamedogs]

Maybe it's your username?

As I've already explained.

 

[Buckshot]

Lol... you can wonder all you like, but as for your so-called fact about a "3/8 inch" chain, I'd like to know where you came up with that? I also want to know what 3/8" chain you know of that has a "26,000lbs breaking strength"? Even the "working load limit" on a 3\8" grade 120 chain is 10,600lbs, which is the strongest chain, in the U.S.A. that you can buy and is less than half of what you stated. Even a 3\8" grade 43 (the grade that we use that is lighter than grade 30) is 5,400lbs WLL... the actual truth about the matter, rather than voicing your opinion and stating it as fact, is that it is a 1\4" grade 43 chain that has a WLL of 2,600lbs and weighs 0.65lbs per foot. So let's do the math here about the supposed "heavy chain"... since she is actually a house dog, and rarely ever even on a chain, she is kept on an 8 foot chain and 8 * 0.65 is 5.2lbs... not sure if that is considered heavy for just any dog, but it's like "dragging" a feather around to them. And another thing, who ever told you that my dog's collar has a "breaking strength" of anywhere near 6,000lbs?

Refer to above, although you stated it as an opinion rather than fact, the same response would be mildly appropriate.

I took that information from a rigging book. Working load limit is generally about half of breaking strength. I was wrong as it says by the website, that it isnt 26,000lbs, it is 26,400 lbs. My riggers handbook may be a bit out of date, but whats 400 lbs between friends? Working load limits may also be restricted by the hooks. I also found the link on a site so that you could see it yourself. As for personally testing the breaking strength of it, I was unable to break it with a heavily mired truck connected to a hydraulic tugger on a oil field rolloff truck using the chain as a leader. I was simply stating that the webbing strap on such heavy rigging would be the weak link since I could not see the rivets/sewing or the clasp.

http://www.kinedyne.com/flatbed/flatbed-detail.asp?FamilyName=ChainAssembly&Cat=Accessories

This one here backs it up as well. http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q...SUNA:2006-37,SUNA:en&sa=X&oi=froogle&ct=title

I know that dragging around 3/8" chain is heavy because I often do it at work.

 

[doberkim]

I think it's a misconception that performance dogs need to be underweight. I

i dont think its a misconception at all. the majority of the public cannot determine their dogs correct weight and think 5-10 lbs overweight is normal.

competitors keep their dogs lean so that while active, they do not need to carry extra weight around which can cause them to break down early.


that being said, i dont see any of the new pittie people here really coming here to discuss the breed, gamedogs is purposefully being deceptive and argumentative just to **** people off. from saying that the dog spends its entire life on the couch with no exercise but has incredible muscling (the pit people i know that have dogs built like this spend hours working on the flirt pole, the treadmill, walk the dogs on a harness and encourage them to pull to build the hind end, play fetch, etc), to debating every little fact yet now answering anything.

why bother?

 

[Gamedogs]

I know that dragging around 3/8" chain is heavy because I often do it at work.

Where are you getting its a 3/8 chain, that would break a dogs neck down, some people thinks it builds the neck up, the chain my dogs are on is 1/4 inch grade #43 chain not 3/8". 5/16" chain is to big for our breed

 

[Buckshot]

Where are you getting its a 3/8 chain, that would break a dogs neck down, some people thinks it builds the neck up, the chain my dogs are on is 1/4 inch grade #43 chain not 3/8". 5/16" chain is to big for our breed

I believe that D ring is 1/4". I know that chain on that dog is not 1/4". I came to this thread to talk rigging, not dogs because I dont know anything about dogs. Please just lay the chain across a tape measure or set of dial calipers with that dog close and snap a photo. I am often wrong but I would be suprised in this instance

 

[Roxy's CD]

Hmm... To be honest, I don't really know, if your condoning dog fighting or not.

I don't believe that those dogs are "pets" and just get fed really good dog food, and that's why they're in that condition.

It LOOKS more like, they aren't being fed enough vs. how much activity, whether it be walks or WP that they're doing.

Perhaps that is the "standard" of an APBT. To be honest, the standard is quite skewed. You'll read on one page, that the average weight is 40lbs-120lbs. Quite a jump if you ask me.

Personally, I would prefer my PET to have a little more weight on him. Hades is around 60lbs, he doesn't look it, you can see some ribs in particular stances (which also weighs on my mind, about the appearance of all of those dogs. The position they're in, combined with straining the muscles a particular way, can make them look much skinnier and leaner than they actually are)

You CANNOT see any backbone, he's actually quite thick and what I call bulky muscle, compared to a leaner more toned dog. But he's solid as a rock. The amount of food he gets varies all the time. If we went for an extra long walk, or played frisbee longer than usual, he gets more food. We have a basic plan for regular, or normal amount of activity and dependent on the amount of exercise he gets will affect how much more dinner he gets.

I guess the intensity of how much activity the dog is doing affects a lot as well. But I believe you stated that your dogs are "couch potatoes".

Now, Hades doesn't do a lot of INTENSE activities, but over 1 hour walks, playing in the water, at least a good half hour of playing INTENSE frisbee and he doesn't look like that. Maybe it's just not in his genes. But from the sounds of it he gets more activity than your dogs, he eats a high quality brand of food and he doesn't look anything like that!

I acknowledge that genes does play a major role, but it's not the whole cast.

Bottom line: I own an APBT possibly a "pit" mix, and I am more than happy with his weight and appearance. My vet is more than happy with his weight and growth. So, so am I

 

[planet molosser]

Ive shown working Cane Corso under judges who rate the dogs high but wont but them up for Best of breed because they can see their ribs..

I personally keep my dogs in working weight lGD all year except show season then for the 5-10 shows we do attend I use bacon and high protein food adn pasta to put that extra 5 pounds on to win a dog show.

Ive also CGC tons of Pits from weigth pull lines that look just like that dog does and has bigger chains. why because they can pull apart the biggest chains ive ever seen.

I wont go to the site thou Ive had it up to here on the dog fighting issue.
Im againest is due to years of Pit rescue and seeing horrors.
But In the research I did in books many there of the OLD PIT man did not create the Pit to be used againest Bait dogs, againest other non game breeds, to DIE , to be human aggressive ,they culled hard and did not sell pets or sell dogs for money like we do today. They were a product of those times and their are history that can not be denied.

BUT and big BUT here today NO excuse for it .

Education is the key but some times missunderstandings can happen due to media interfence.

Example I was told by the shelters i worked for , the pit underground rescue net and the media that Pits have LOCKING jaws - a different jaw set up then other breeds. The first time i passed that incorrect information on the net I was slapped down hard with correct info 10 years ago.

It is the endurance and the gameness that makes them hard to break apart plus a strong jaw it is what the breed was created for yet my / is would the pit man of yester year ever created the breed knowing the horrors that would become its future and lead to the ultimate extinction of it.

Ok my 2 cents .

 

[Gamedogs]

I believe that D ring is 1/4". I know that chain on that dog is not 1/4". I came to this thread to talk rigging, not dogs because I dont know anything about dogs. Please just lay the chain across a tape measure or set of dial calipers with that dog close and snap a photo. I am often wrong but I would be suprised in this instance

As I've already stated at least twice, the chain that is on that dog in the picture, is a 1\4" chain, the only thing I lied about was the length of the chain (I took another look at the picture and she's not on her usual run), we had an extra dog that day and she was put on our 16.5' chain. I'm not taking her outside and putting the chain across a tape measure to prove a point that I really don't even have to make. Here is a picture of a grade 43 1\4" chain (actually the same chain she was on), a quarter, and a grade 70 5\16" chain (a chain that we use to tow cars).

There are the facts, you can choose to believe it or not, that's entirely up to you.

 

[stevinski]

omg gamedogs can u please stop replying so defensively,
we are just asking questions,

i think your girl looks extremely impressive when compared to the high amount of porely bred pits out there

is the matrix lines in her?

 

[Buckshot]

I might believe that the 5/16" chain is in the picture with the dog. Its hard for me to tell on the dog because Im not that familiar with the dogs size. It just doesnt seem to me that the chain on the left was used because the chain in the picture with the dog doesnt look rusty and the link dia to gap looks more in line with the chain on the right. Thanks for going to the effort to get the shot though

 

[Gamedogs]

is the matrix lines in her?

No...

 

[Amstaffer]

There are several ways to get a dog to look like that

1. Genetics is part
2. Diet
3. Exercise
4. Hydration (low levels)

With that in mind it is not healthy long term for dogs (or humans) to have that low of body fat. Body fat protects the nervous system as well as the brain. I used to lift a lot and my doctor gave me the whole rundown on the dangers of a very low fat diet and keeping my body fat percent too low.

These dogs have zero back up if they were to fall ill and I believe that it stresses their bodies to maintain such a low bad fat percentage. They might have stamina as young dogs because of their exercise routine but this condition will catch up with them IMHO.

If your current vet doesn't believe this...maybe get a second opinion.

The question I have is very simple; why do your dogs have to keep in such extreme condition? Pulling? Show? I have been a casual observer of both and I have seen many very successful dogs in both that didn't maintain such maximized fitness.

If the condition you have achieved with these dogs is for vanity or vicariousness please reconsider for the overall and longterm good of the dog.

 

[silverpawz]

LOL, my initial expectations and thoughts about this group are still proving to be right.

If your initial impression was that we might be against dog fighting....good. I'm glad you we're right.

That thread you posted only serves to prove that you do in fact have members there that fight their dogs. Apparently, that's okay, as long as they don't talk openly about it on the forum? No attempt to educate them on why this is wrong, just "bit your tongue and we can all get along"? Nice.

Although I do not do it, I commend those DOGMEN that persist in keeping the sport alive even when those we thought as "friends in the sport" turn cur and tuck their tails in and run the other way. As long as it is done professionally and with care to the athlete canines, it is ok by me.

This quote above from the thread you posted makes me shudder. He's basically saying, "Hey, I thinks dog fighting is a-okay, but no problem boss I won't talk about here".

So wrong, in so many ways.

I for one will try not to speak of our sport on this site solely because it is the will of the owner. It does not mean that I will stop posting my sentiments on any topic while staying a "gentleman". Everyone should remain gentleman-like as our sport is suppose to be a gentlemen's sport.

Sigh. Apparently dog fighting is a gentlemans sport...feel free to picture the word 'gentleman' dripping with sarcasm.

" TRUE dogmen keep their business off the internet instead of bragging about it like little boys in the locker room."

Exactly!
Remember, "loose lips sink ships"...

that's the "under lying" message here.

This was from a Super Moderator on your board. A mod! "Saying go ahead and fight your dogs, but don't tell us about it!"

Wow. Don't even know what to say to that.

 

[Amstaffer]

Sigh. Apparently dog fighting is a gentlemans sport...feel free to picture the word 'gentleman' dripping with sarcasm.

agreed....

Perhaps this is OT but I need to vent after reading some of the posts in the Game-dog forum and post here.

Dogfighting is not a sport and the people who do it are cowards and have their noble dogs do and act in ways they wish they could.

Dogfighting scum wish to be tough, brave and game....they are none of those. They are weak, cowards and have zero heart.

If these "gentleman" really wanted to show these traits they breed their dogs to have....They would join the UFC and prove they don't need a dog to validate their "manhood".

I get so when I hear dog fighting "gentlemen" spew their Bullsh!t it drives me nuts.