So cruelty is OK, as long as it's for religious reasons

Discussion in 'The Fire Hydrant' started by Gempress, Apr 7, 2012.

  1. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    But see, there should not be any excuse for bullying at all. If we excuse bullying in situation "x," then it shouldn't be surprising when it pops up in situation "y."
     
  2. ravennr

    ravennr ಥ⌣ಥ

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    It depends on what is being said. And again, that goes back to trying to define bullying. Some people think having a negative opinion, and saying it out loud, is bullying, when it isn't.

    Using the example that was given (the Duggars), while I haven't seen any of the threads on Chaz about them to post in them, I personally don't agree with their lifestyle and find them completely selfish as parents. That's generally what I see being said. That's not bullying. That's an opinion based on what they do.
     
  3. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    I think a lot of it has to do with feeling powerful. Making oneself feel more powerful by making someone else feel small.

    I was bullied a little bit in school, but looking back it was not nearly as bad as it could have been. I remember that in middle school there was a girl I'll call "P." Some people teased me, and I was not popular, and was a very unconfident kid. But, people teased "P" more (for being overweight), and I went along with it because if they were teasing her, then maybe they wouldn't notice me and tease me less.

    There was another incident in middle school where a pair of girls in our group of friends got into a fight. To get girl "A" back for something (don't even remember what it was now), girl "B" wrote a fake note, pretending to be girl "A." The note basically said that girl "A" was a lesbian who was in love with girl "B." Girl "B" passed this note around to everyone in our grade, and girl "A" was mercilessly tormented for being lesbian, and eventually it got so bad she had to change schools.

    There where are few of us that knew the truth and never stuck up for that poor girl. To this day I don't have a good answer as to why (we probably were afraid of becoming targets ourselves, but that's not a good excuse and its something that still haunts me as an adult.
     
  4. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    Well, going by that logic, do think that someone saying that they do not agree with the homosexual lifestyle and that gays should not be allowed to get married is bullying?

    BTW, there were actually some very nasty and mocking things said about the Duggars, beyond simply disagreement of a certain lifestyle.
     
  5. Beanie

    Beanie Clicker Cult Coordinator

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    I think it's a very small percentage of people who are being mean for the pleasure of being mean... I think it's a far larger percentage of people who just plain think it's acceptable and okay and even celebrated to be mean. They honestly don't see anything wrong with it - or if they do, they justify it with "well it's okay to be mean to that kid because this." so they don't feel bad. Or they just think they're being "funny." They're "just kidding." There are lots of excuses for it and I honestly think a lot of people TRULY believe those excuses - if they didn't, they wouldn't behave as they do, again as I agree that I don't think it's very many people who are being hateful just for shiggles...

    I don't think it's a matter of "oh the poor bully has abusive parents so he's abusing other people, it's just what he's LEARNED from his parents!" (though yes, those cases exist.) I think it's more just a symptom of our culture on the whole, how people treat people in general.
     
  6. jess2416

    jess2416 Who woulda thought

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    Ive been on both ends of it, the bullee and the bullier, and for me, I was always picked on because I was the one in school that at the time had the bad complexion and didnt have the "name brand clothes" and couldnt do alot of the things the other kids do and I think not that its an excuse but I guess the reason I became one of the bulliers was because everyone else was doing it even though i was one of the ones the were doing it too, another thing for me was "I thought" that if I wasnt loud enough or saying some mean enough that people wouldn't listen to me know matter what I was trying to say even up to a year or two ago, and I look back now and go "what was I doing and why was I acting that way towards other people" and it makes me sick that I treated people like that, even some people on this forum, and Im truly very sorry for that..
     
  7. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    This.

    And just to be clear, I think that it is a sad state of affairs when someone uses their faith as an excuse to torment others.
     
  8. Lilavati

    Lilavati Arbitrary and Capricious

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    There is a difference in expressing your opinion, however, objectionable, and bullying. I honestly think that some of these laws are created, in principle, to protect religious kids' right to say "I think homosexuality is a mortal sin." I think we all know how, um . . .overenthusiastic, schools can be in enforcing their concept of the rules. If its like the last one I read, its purpose its to protect the right to free speech, and it doesn't permit actual bullying.

    That said, I also have no doubt it will used as open season on gay kids, and that some of its supporters know that and are all for it.

    The problem with defining bullying, and the reason I'm leery of all bullying laws, is that things that hurt your feelings and make you unhappy aren't necessarily bullying. I was bullied plenty as a kid, so I know what I'm talking about here. These rules should not be used to attempt to protect children from all the ups and downs and hurts and dramas of childhood . . . those are part of growing up. They should not be used to protect children from contrary opinions, or to smother unpopular opinions (having actually gotten in trouble (or gotten bad grades) for having opinions that were in fact, guilty of being too "conservative," I again know of what I speak, although those opinions were not directed at any human beings that would be offended by them except for political reasons)

    Defining the exact boundaries for legal purposes is hard . . . and that's why laws against bullying are a bad idea. Assault, harassment, making threats, those are already illegal. All schools should, obviously, have a policy against lower level assault, harassment and cruelty as well . . .and in fact probably do, whether or not they are enforced. But mandating such rules, and then mandating exceptions, by law, is a recipe for mindless, counterproductive enforcement, and equally mindless lack of enforcement. The law (especially when implemented by dim-witted school boards) is an awfully blunt instrument to apply to the cruelties and betrayals of childhood and adolescence . . . as we all should have learned from the current policies schools have that are supposed to make them "safe."

    Edit: I am emphatically not defending the right of people to bully for religious reasons . . . but I also recognize that, however rude it might be, people have right to say "I believe homosexuality is wrong," and that right should not end at the schoolhouse door, even if it offends and upsets their classmates or their teacher. Its also not bullying . . . not by itself. But that's the problem isn't it? Finding the difference in a particular situation that makes free speech bullying . . . and that's why laws (let alone arbitrary exceptions) are a bad idea.
     
  9. sparks19

    sparks19 I'd rather be at Disney

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    I din't feel like I am reading too much into things and it's not because we disagree that I feel some of your comments come across as "talking down" to me. It really is the way some of your posts come across. I think I am asking legitimate questions and not just "splitting hairs". If we are trying to define laws against bullying the. These questions need answers. They are perfectly valid questions.

    But that does bring about another interesting side to the bullying equation. Is it bullying if the bully says "i wasn't bullying you... You just perceived it that way". ? BTW I am NOT saying YOU are a bully but it id bring up an interesting point... If it's all just a matter of perception?


    Good post. I don't think more laws are going to help since most acts of bullying already fall into one law or another. Although, I do wish there was more about online harassment (some of the stuff posted on kids facebook pages is outrageous and clearly harassment but because it's online it's stilla grey area in many states)

    I think the current laws just need to be enforced by schools, parents and taken seriously by police.
     
  10. Greenmagick

    Greenmagick New Member

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    Yeah, I dont see discussing celebrities, politicians, etc on a forum (even if saying mean stuff) as bullying. It may be mean but to me bullying is about someone forcing said opinion, or meaness I guess you could say, onto the person directly. Directly in person, through phone calls, letters, emails, etc.
     
  11. ravennr

    ravennr ಥ⌣ಥ

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    Exactly.

    The internet is not collectively Arizona, so I reserve the right to say whatever mean, catty thing I want about whoever I feel like, but that goes double for people who "welcome" those comments by being in the public eye. I'm not stalking them, sending them letters, harassing them. I'm saying it to people they don't know, they will never meet them, they often are not even within thousands of miles of them. That doesn't even constitute as cyber-bullying.


    For the record to answer a question above, no, a person saying they don't agree with homosexuality or gay marriage isn't bullying. They have the right to express their jadedness just like the rest of us. Tormenting goes just a bit further than that, I think we can all agree.
     
  12. Sweet72947

    Sweet72947 Squishy face

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    As Lilavati pointed out in a previous post, we already have laws for adults bullying other adults. Harassment, defamation of character, libel, assault. But there is still this attitude of "kids will be kids" (and especially "boys will be boys") that a lot of people still have, thus bullying between minors isn't taken as seriously as it should be.

    Also, just look at how the media portrays bullying as a normal part of school. Every show, every movie about high school kids and under has a bully. Even a lot of movies with adults in them have a bully that the hero bests by the end. It is literally shoved down our throat that bullying is "expected" in life and it needs to stop.
     

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