Sibes and other northern breeds

AdrianneIsabel

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#84
Never heard of it. Got a link?
Did some googling. Do you know if they come in a longhaired variety?
We have a Chaz member who owns one and could help out. They seem like a great fit for someone wanting the look but a more family/casual sporting appropriate temperament. I really like their look and plan to watch them as a someday maybe breed.
 

monkeys23

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Depending on your understanding and definition of human aggression, a German Shepherd Dog may not be for you. GSDs are absolutely an aggressive breed, but aggression typically carries a more negative connotation and has been portrayed as a negative breed trait more often than not. If you want a dog without an aggressive bone in his body, then I strongly recommend you steer clear of the breed.
Indeed. Even though she is half husky Lily is deadly serious about my safety. In bitework she'll play the game with the equipment, but if she could get in a dirty bite she wouldn't hesitate. She's only ever alerted on ONE person and that person is now in federal prison. She's very social and goes everywhere with me, but she is half GSD and will do her job if she has to.
Scout isn't as vigilant, but she is so much fun to do bitework with. We have a lot of fun with that. And its done more than anything else to mentally give her a "job" and good outlet for her drives, which helps her relax and enjoy life. Again very social girl and goes everywhere with me. Glad you caught this Equinox, I'd missed it!

I have often seen dangerous behaviors come as a result of a poor management and understanding of the breed’s innate instincts and drives, so I think this could go either way. Is a Shepherd capable of exhibiting dangerous behaviors? Absolutely. Is it preventable or manageable in a mature, well bred dog of solid nerve? In my opinion, yes, though this will depend on the individual dog.
Yes this is a biggie! My dog Scout had all kinds of undesirable behaviors in her previous home, despite that home being more ideal on paper than I was at that time, and whattaya know those magically went away when I took her. If the dog is smarter than the people who own it (and this breed IS a thinking dog with lots of drive that needs a "job" of some sort) and has no outlet for its natural drive, all sorts of problem behaviors can surface in the hands of an owner not suited to or experienced with the breed. Ditto for Sibes/Mals too actually. ;)

It’s very interesting – and unfortunate – that this has been your experience with the breed. I can easily say that my own has been the very opposite, and I’ve met a wide range of German Shepherds from all types of breedings. I do not deny at all that the breed has many issues as a whole, but in person, all the German Shepherds I have met have been stable, self possessed, and enjoyable to be around.
Agreed. Even the gawd knows what kind of showline girl I had the pleasure to visit with when I volunteered at the shelter (probably a byb dog) was a great girl. Yeah there are problems with poorly bred dogs in the breed, but there are in any popular breed. ;)


Excellent point, monkeys! I would be more than happy to provide examples of how the way a dog is stacked can affect the overall appearance to those not familiar with the breed, and/or assessing conformation and structure.
Thanks! Thats not a bad idea, i think you should put up some examples!


I am such a fan of American/German showline crosses! My neighbor’s German Shepherd is a lovely, balanced, American x German showline dog of excellent conformation and temperament. There is also a breeder in Oregon who has stunning German/American dogs (in appearance, at the very least – I have not had the fortune to meet any in person yet).

http://www.fairwayshepherds.com/
I had no idea how nice they could be! I've never really been a fan of showline dogs, but man that girl really impressed me in person!

I think I've heard of Fairway before. Looks like they are very active with their dogs and have a nice program.


There is a woman on the German Shepherd forum I frequent who has a Zeder Kamme dog. I hear the breeder is a lovely lady to talk to, and that she has gorgeous dogs. The woman on the forum’s pup will be a year soon and he is just gorgeous, although he has a possibly neurological medical issue affecting his back legs primarily. I forgot his breeding, but his temperament is just stellar and he is excelling in bitework.
Sucks that stuff pops up sometimes even with health testing. I think I've seen pics of him... I lurk there, lol. I've really enjoyed all her dogs that I've met. They certainly aren't ornamental lol... pretty zesty and fun.

A quick comment on vom Banach – I love the dogs and lines she breeds and works with, but you’ll have to be very, very clear about the type of dog you want and the type of dog you are willing to handle. She produces dogs of varying drives, thresholds, and temperaments and sometimes will match a dog that is too much for the owner/handler.

This goes for MANY other breeders, so this is also general advice for when someone’s talking to breeders and choosing between litters and kennels.
Indeed, its always good to be more clear than you think you need to be when talking to breeders and looking for a pup/dog. I was going to visit her kennel one of the times i went to see my bro in Seattle a several years back, but a phone tag issue thwarted it. Maybe someday!



Not that they are easier to raise or are lower in drive, but I know more working lines to be confrontational (and often subtly so, which can be more difficult) than show lines.
Very good point and very true!


Thank you! I’m very happy with the dog I got from Ray, and feel so thrilled to have Trent as a part of my life each and every day. He is a great dog with the right personality for all the right moments, and just the drive and intuition I want in a dog.

Trent’s breeder actually has working lines and show lines at his kennel, I don’t think he is particular about type so long as the dog is a good working dog. I think currently he has a show line male standing stud at his kennel, and a show line bitch. I’ve been just as impressed with the show lines and show/working lines he breeds, as I have been with the working lines.
Your welcome! Ray sure does a really nice job with his dogs. I like that he holds true to the well as long as its the entire GSD package we're good to go! I sure love how versatile they are in everything.

Also I'd like to add that my 75% GSD dog is okay if something comes up and we don't get a good run in on top of regular walks and training, but the 50/50 Sibe/GSD one starts chasing her tail and having spastic husky zoomies around the house if she doesn't get her required mileage. The huskies, they must has the running. ;)

Lily also in a vain attempt to keep working at our private lesson kept jumping on top of the kennel instead of going into it. It was hilarious, well to me anyway. I trade off between each of them in our lessons, so they both get worked. Same day Scout had a rapid fire Shepherd barking fit in the kennel because she wanted to get out and work, but it was currently Lily's turn. Again it cracked me up because I like my girls' drive to do stuff, but if that would annoy you stay away from GSD's.

A purebred Sibe or Mal would probably go "Oh look at the kitty!" and pay no attention. Or "SQUIRREL!!!!" :rofl1:
 

monkeys23

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#86
Offensive or not, its MY BLOODY OPINION. I specifically said " I find _____ ugly" and "_____ is acceptable to me". And my opinion is not uneducated, unless of course talking to GSD owners and breeders and doing research for the last year and a half counts as "uneducated" -eye roll- I refuse to own a dog that I find hideous, regardless of whether someone else likes that look or not. Im not them. Im not you. So you think the show line dogs can be beautiful, fine, wonderful, good for you. I dont share that opinion. And I wont apologize for it. Having preferences isnt hurting anything

And those same GSD owners, two of which know me extremely well and know the kind of dog Im looking for, have told ME that working line/ddr shepherds are going to be TOO MUCH DOG FOR ME. I trust their judgement, hence, being stuck in bind as far as GSD goes. I hate the show line look, the working line temperament hates me.

So unless theres a magical in-between solution to that, Im afraid I just cannot seriously consider the GSD for myself.
Honestly... I keep going back to maybe you should stay with bullies. Also, its nice to be nice to people who are taking the time to help you. Well okay we're going it for the dogs we love too. ;)
 

monkeys23

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#87
We have a Chaz member who owns one and could help out. They seem like a great fit for someone wanting the look but a more family/casual sporting appropriate temperament. I really like their look and plan to watch them as a someday maybe breed.
True. I have a hard time with people breeding for that look on purpose. I mean I have a hard enough time worrying about covering the sable dogs in orange so they don't get shot already and to make a mutt mix that looks more wolfy just seems really nonsensical to me. Call me crazy, but I already got enough ignorant people shouting wolf at my dogs. *shrug*
 

frostfell

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#88
I am staying with the bullies. Like I said, Im not "switching breeds". I just want ONE fluffy fun sport thing I can do stuff with, something for me, not for breeding, not for the breeds future, but for me.
 

Romy

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#89
True. I have a hard time with people breeding for that look on purpose. I mean I have a hard enough time worrying about covering the sable dogs in orange so they don't get shot already and to make a mutt mix that looks more wolfy just seems really nonsensical to me. Call me crazy, but I already got enough ignorant people shouting wolf at my dogs. *shrug*
Meh, people shout pony and anteater at mine. :p I have seen longer coated dogs from ANCD lines, it's not a look I personally care for but it exists. The problem Frostfell will run into with ANCDs again is they're on the higher end of the size spectrum (70 lbs.+)

Here Frostfell:

http://www.berger-blanc-international.com/

from the top of page 6 of the standard PDF download
Weight: Males: ca. 30 - 40 kgs. Females: ca. 25 - 35 kgs. Typical dogs slightly under- or oversized should not be disqualifyed.


So fluffay!


One of our members imported a berger blanc suisse puppy and has an adult white GSD that is her working SD. Maybe if she sees this she'll give some input.
 

AdrianneIsabel

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#90
True. I have a hard time with people breeding for that look on purpose. I mean I have a hard enough time worrying about covering the sable dogs in orange so they don't get shot already and to make a mutt mix that looks more wolfy just seems really nonsensical to me. Call me crazy, but I already got enough ignorant people shouting wolf at my dogs. *shrug*
To each their own, honestly, but I see a desire for it and I understand it. I love the look but I have no desire for the temperament commonly associated with such breeds.
 

Lyzelle

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#91
Anteater and pony don't put your dogs in danger of being taken away and euth'd, Romy. There's a major responsibility with what that breeder is doing and considering how many dogs of hers that have ended up with BYB'ers who ARE breeding in wolf...I personally don't think she has that amount of responsibility in her.

Wolves and hybrids are banned in most states. Calling a Sibe a wolf is dangerous. Creating dogs from Sibes and GSDs to be specifically called "wolves but really not" isn't something I'm terribly fond of.

Everyone loves the look until it's their dog on the cutting board.
 

Equinox

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#92
Offensive or not, its MY BLOODY OPINION. I specifically said " I find _____ ugly" and "_____ is acceptable to me". And my opinion is not uneducated, unless of course talking to GSD owners and breeders and doing research for the last year and a half counts as "uneducated" -eye roll- I refuse to own a dog that I find hideous, regardless of whether someone else likes that look or not. Im not them. Im not you. So you think the show line dogs can be beautiful, fine, wonderful, good for you. I dont share that opinion. And I wont apologize for it. Having preferences isnt hurting anything

And those same GSD owners, two of which know me extremely well and know the kind of dog Im looking for, have told ME that working line/ddr shepherds are going to be TOO MUCH DOG FOR ME. I trust their judgement, hence, being stuck in bind as far as GSD goes. I hate the show line look, the working line temperament hates me.

So unless theres a magical in-between solution to that, Im afraid I just cannot seriously consider the GSD for myself.
I'm very glad to hear that. At least you are mature enough in that aspect, to have come to such a conclusion. I agree that a working bred German Shepherd will probably be too much for you.

Best of luck in your search! Hope you find the dog you are looking for, regardless of whether or not you fall in love with the breed.


Indeed. Even though she is half husky Lily is deadly serious about my safety. In bitework she'll play the game with the equipment, but if she could get in a dirty bite she wouldn't hesitate. She's only ever alerted on ONE person and that person is now in federal prison. She's very social and goes everywhere with me, but she is half GSD and will do her job if she has to.
Scout isn't as vigilant, but she is so much fun to do bitework with. We have a lot of fun with that. And its done more than anything else to mentally give her a "job" and good outlet for her drives, which helps her relax and enjoy life. Again very social girl and goes everywhere with me. Glad you caught this Equinox, I'd missed it!
Yes this is a biggie! My dog Scout had all kinds of undesirable behaviors in her previous home, despite that home being more ideal on paper than I was at that time, and whattaya know those magically went away when I took her. If the dog is smarter than the people who own it (and this breed IS a thinking dog with lots of drive that needs a "job" of some sort) and has no outlet for its natural drive, all sorts of problem behaviors can surface in the hands of an owner not suited to or experienced with the breed. Ditto for Sibes/Mals too actually. ;)
Yes, exactly - I don't want a dog with high suspicion because my dog is my day to day companion first and foremost, and that means I take him everywhere I can with me. Trent is very stable, breezes through large crowds when I take him to sidewalk sales, and while he doesn't look forward to meeting new people, he's been known to fall in love with strangers once or twice :) He allows people to walk through our door if someone is there to greet them, and even then if guests walk in unannounced, he'll alert bark at most. A frightening display, but with no meaning behind the action. He hardly bats an eye at people walking past our house or our car, if we're in a parking lot.

But, if he senses any genuine nervousness or fear from me, he jumps into action (and I admit to scaring easily). And not as a human or fear reactive dog would. Luckily, it's always been false alarms and a pat on the side or a "it's okay, Trent" calms him down almost immediately. He's very conscious of me even when he is acting on a perceived threat, and has displayed excellent discernment in the past.

It helps that he is 3 1/2 now and finally growing that brain of his :) In dog less self aware or mentally balanced (whether due to age or maturity), or in a dog with lower thresholds and stronger suspicion or a sharper temperament, this can become something that is difficult to manage... especially if handled by the wrong person. Some traits inherent to the breed can be misinterpreted and then mishandled, or simply not recognized or dealt with at all.

Even in a lower drive, higher threshold, "pet quality" dog like Trent, it took a while for me to really know my dog and what I had (and by that, I mean a great dog and a poor personal understanding of the type I owned :eek:). As a first time dog owner, I managed well, in my opinion, and without much effort to be honest. Just a basic understanding and the realization that my expectations weren't very informed. So if someone wanted a dog that would not display aggression, then I'd definitely recommend against German Shepherds, among many other breeds.



Thanks! Thats not a bad idea, i think you should put up some examples!
I have a few pictures I keep around to use as examples, just for these types of discussions :lol-sign:

I'll go through them and post soon.


Sucks that stuff pops up sometimes even with health testing. I think I've seen pics of him... I lurk there, lol. I've really enjoyed all her dogs that I've met. They certainly aren't ornamental lol... pretty zesty and fun.
Oh absolutely, and I don't mean to say or imply that it's the breeder's fault at all. I can see how it may have come off that way to anyone else, so just to let everyone know, I don't fault the breeder the least! I remember the Shepherd's owner posting a picture of the dog's littermate and he was just fine. And, as I said, the dog's temperament sounds just stellar.

She recently updated on a smaller GSD forum I'm a member of, with a quick picture and post.

Also I'd like to add that my 75% GSD dog is okay if something comes up and we don't get a good run in on top of regular walks and training, but the 50/50 Sibe/GSD one starts chasing her tail and having spastic husky zoomies around the house if she doesn't get her required mileage. The huskies, they must has the running. ;)
Oh geez, I could go two weeks without training or exercising Trent and he'd still just nap his way through the day. He's so calm around the house he's flat out boring. I wish he'd do more! I love practicing indoor pictures, but all of them are just of him looking at me (points to signature).

Lily also in a vain attempt to keep working at our private lesson kept jumping on top of the kennel instead of going into it. It was hilarious, well to me anyway. I trade off between each of them in our lessons, so they both get worked. Same day Scout had a rapid fire Shepherd barking fit in the kennel because she wanted to get out and work, but it was currently Lily's turn. Again it cracked me up because I like my girls' drive to do stuff, but if that would annoy you stay away from GSD's.

A purebred Sibe or Mal would probably go "Oh look at the kitty!" and pay no attention. Or "SQUIRREL!!!!" :rofl1:
Lily and Scout sound like such a fun pair to be around! There should be some sort of PNW meet up - I've been wanting to meet katielou (I can't remember if she's in Seattle or an hour away from Seattle) and steal Abe. I'll nab your pair while I'm at it.

Always love hearing your thoughts, monkeys!
 

Equinox

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#93
http://www.berger-blanc-international.com/

from the top of page 6 of the standard PDF download




So fluffay!


One of our members imported a berger blanc suisse puppy and has an adult white GSD that is her working SD. Maybe if she sees this she'll give some input.
White Shepherds/BBS's are a good recommendation, actually. I'm not sure if it is just my experience, but I've known more White Shepherds and white German Shepherds to carry the long coat gene in general (compared to working lines and American show lines).

I've spoken with someone who owns two White Shepherds from Braehead and will soon have a third, but I'm not sure if their conformation is to your liking. They are incredibly versatile and excel in a variety of performance sports.

http://braeheadwhiteshepherds.com/about.html
 

Romy

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#94
Anteater and pony don't put your dogs in danger of being taken away and euth'd, Romy. There's a major responsibility with what that breeder is doing and considering how many dogs of hers that have ended up with BYB'ers who ARE breeding in wolf...I personally don't think she has that amount of responsibility in her.

Wolves and hybrids are banned in most states. Calling a Sibe a wolf is dangerous. Creating dogs from Sibes and GSDs to be specifically called "wolves but really not" isn't something I'm terribly fond of.

Everyone loves the look until it's their dog on the cutting board.
This thing with random sibe/mal/GSD mixes and wolf hybrids is there is no registry their ancestry is documented through if a question of parentage comes up.

The same issue happens in ANY place where there's BSL, not just hybrid restrictions. If this lady's lab hadn't been registered he'd be dead. And labs aren't normally a breed that people think of as being in danger of getting seized because they resembled banned animals.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/articles/breedbanslabradormistake.htm

With a new breed that has a studbook and documented domestic foundation stock, you can show registration papers and prove your dog has no wolf ancestry. Even though they look more wolfy, I'd say they're safer from BSL than undocumented northern/GSD mixes.
 

monkeys23

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I am staying with the bullies. Like I said, Im not "switching breeds". I just want ONE fluffy fun sport thing I can do stuff with, something for me, not for breeding, not for the breeds future, but for me.
Both my dogs' previous owners' got them because they wanted a pretty fluffy. Lily's previous owner dumped her on the street to starve when he was sick of her destroying his house because she was given zero outlet physically or mentally. She will always have a compulsive eating disorder from her time on the street. She's perfect for me and an awesome dog, but I am under no illusions. If I had not snapped her up her life would not have been so secure and enjoyable. She probably would have ended up back in the shelter system, rescue, or gotten hit on the road.

You think that statement is extreme? Well let me tell you how I ended up with my second dog. :rolleyes:
Long story shot, my best friend's mother did not heed my MULTIPLE warnings about what goes into making Lily such a good doggie citizen. She just wanted an awesome dog like Lily, so just go out and get one right? Yeah these kind of dogs aren't good couch ornaments AT ALL.

Thats not even where poor Scout's story starts. Her first owner got her because of how she looks, cute and fuzzy right? She was an f'ing adorable puppy. Well sufice to say her first adopter was in no way prepared for the awesome landsharkiness of a GSD puppy. Tearing apart crates is a pretty typical drivey Shepherd thing, especially for pups (hence the landshark handle ;) ), buuut this pet lady assumed she had SA and went about creating SA in her by assuming that. Great that is fun. So when she had some medical problems and could no longer afford expensive doggie daycare (that gave Scout atrocious dog/dog manners that have vastly improved since I've had her) or other basic care for her and the other GSD she couldn't handle that she bought to keep Scout company she posted on fb that she needed to give them away to a good home. So when I turned it down because neither were really what I was looking for OF COURSE my friend's mother jumped on that.

It actually was a lot less of a train wreck than I was expecting, but it still wasn't great for poor Scout and obviously I ended up with her after all was said and done. Here are the highlights: She has a scar on her nose from the RR beating up on her because they don't supervise their dogs, she's terrified of kids because the unsupervised toddler chewed on her (she actually is totally comfy with even those particular kids now that she's in a stable, breed experienced home), she's missing a molar because they left her unsupervised in the fenced backyard and she dug out to chase the neighbor's rodeo horses... gawd she's lucky she isn't dead! She killed several semi-feral cats. She got bored and got into acrylic paint, so I had to cut a bunch of hardened paint out of her fur when I took her. And I think I'll stop there.

Scout would be a lot more normal if she hadn't had to live with a couple different pet owners who wanted a pretty fluffy haired dog.

I'm sorry wanting a dog because fluffy hair is cute is not a great reason for getting a fluffy dog. Its just not.

You say you want to do sports? Well what kind of sports? What sports do you already do with your dogs? It sounds like you want to very lightly dabble to be honest and really, the more work you can give these dogs the happier they'll be.

I don't get a choice. I have to go out in the blizzard or sleet or whatever and give my dogs their daily exercise. Its part of owning the working mix dogs I chose to own. But thats a choice I made, I love having them, don't mind doing any of it, and I look forward to someday having a third high drive pointy dog. Its not the right time yet, but it will be someday.

I've been around a lot of bully breeds and they are nowhere near as high maintenance as the fluffies are. The fluffies have to have a job of some sort or they will find ways to entertain themselves that you won't like. Hell ask Adrianne, she lives with pit bulls and malinois lol.

I guess people are going to do what they are going to do, but its irresponsible to not heed multiple warnings from various people via various media/in person/etc. that you probably won't mesh well living with a certain breed when what you describe wanting (aside from the hair and pointy ears) better matches a totally different breed type and ownership style.

I just really do not want any other poor dogs having to deal with what my dogs have had to in the past. They don't deserve being passed around because people are selfish and look at dogs as objects for their looks.
 

monkeys23

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#97
To each their own, honestly, but I see a desire for it and I understand it. I love the look but I have no desire for the temperament commonly associated with such breeds.
Eh maybe I'm jsut more paranoid 'cause I'm from ID lol. Yay gun happy rednecks. Everyone in the backwoods has BC's or generic cattle dogs. Or hounds or labs. Weiner dogs are popular too.

Not many shepherdy things and the sled dog people you never see out and about because their dogs are chained out on their property unless they are mushing. Man if I'd known growing up that my farrier raised and mushed Alaskan huskies and Sepalla siberians...
 

monkeys23

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#98
Anteater and pony don't put your dogs in danger of being taken away and euth'd, Romy. There's a major responsibility with what that breeder is doing and considering how many dogs of hers that have ended up with BYB'ers who ARE breeding in wolf...I personally don't think she has that amount of responsibility in her.

Wolves and hybrids are banned in most states. Calling a Sibe a wolf is dangerous. Creating dogs from Sibes and GSDs to be specifically called "wolves but really not" isn't something I'm terribly fond of.

Everyone loves the look until it's their dog on the cutting board.
Indeed. Or just flat out shot even if you are on your own property. I honestly worry even though they wear orange when I see people slow down on the road when we are hiking in the pasture. Pretty normal to screech over the side and whip out the gun to shoot a coyote here.
 

frostfell

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#99
We are having this discussion because I refuse to get and discard dog after dog finding what works. I want to figure it out beforehand, get a dog, and have it have been the right choice. If I wasnt set on that, I would be another Jairi and I wouldnt be bitching about having to reject the GSD and Akita because of unsuitabilities. Iv got half a dozen people in person and online telling me a watered down Sibe would do perfectly, and half a dozen people telling me that NO Sibe, on ANY part of the spectrum, will suit me. I just dont know. This is why Im HERE, asking stupid questions.
 

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