Shiloh Shephard VS. German Shephard Dog

Discussion in 'The Dog Breeds' started by HayleyMarie, Feb 14, 2011.

  1. HayleyMarie

    HayleyMarie Like a bat outa' hell

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    What is the difference between these two breeder?

    Has anyone on Chaz meet a Shiloh and did you notice a huge temperment difference from the GSD.

    What I hear is the the Shiloh resembles what the original GSD was.

    I have met tons of GSD and I do not think I have ever met a shiloh, so Im just curiose.
     
  2. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    I've met a bunch. There's a wide variation.

    They're not the old style german shepherd. They're "recreations" of how some folks remember them. What they forget is the german shepherd was never a 120 layabout farm dawg. Dogs seem a lot bigger when you're a little kid.

    Anyway, they've got some akita blood mixed in. There are a ton of BYBers involved in the breed, and I don't like how the club claims they are like old style GSDs when they aren't.

    The dogs themselves vary widely in temperament. You see a lot of fearful/weird things because of the BYB aspect.

    On the flip side they can be shown at IABCA shows and I've met some really amazing gorgeous balanced animals there. Not too overdone in size, friendly and confident, laid back.

    If I got one from a good breeder who health tested and everything I'd expect a dog with much less drive than a correct GSD, stable, confident, etc. When they are bred right, they do make very nice laid back family pets. To compare them to an older breed, I'd say the good ones I've met were much more like leonbergers in temperament than anything else.

    ETA: in the less stable BYB lines you often find DA. Not sure if it comes from the akita or just because the dogs are not bred well overall, but I've never met a well bred shiloh that had problems with other animals or dogs. The well bred ones were pretty low drive/non reactive to everything it seemed like.
     
  3. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    I have met a few through showing them whippets. The RBCC shows. Most seem nice dogs. Not sure I agree with Romy about them being less drivey. They seem about the same as confo bred GSDs. Both of those versions being less drivey than other lines.
     
  4. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    Well, when I think of confo bred GSDs drivey isn't something that comes to mind for them either. :p

    The breeders I talked to said they purposefully breed away from high drive, because they didn't like how it was hard to find well bred GSDs that weren't so over the top you might as well get a malinois. I can kind of see the point, in that the Czech border patrol lines have gotten a lot more popular over here and they are much more intense than the GSDs folks are used to seeing here in America. The GSD rescue in Arizona complained about the same thing. Folks would get the import dogs thinking they'd be like every other GSD they'd had, but the dogs were much more intense and reactive, and ended up in rescue.

    But then, it's not impossible to find GSDs with good off switches either.
     
  5. Equinox

    Equinox Active Member

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    You heard wrong. That is completely untrue, and, as a matter of fact, the Shiloh Shepherd resembles the exact opposite of what the original German Shepherd Dog was.

    The original GSD was a medium sized dog, mostly stock coated (as far as the popular producers), strong, highly driven, appropriately aggressive, stable, of solid nerve, and a good all around working dog.

    The Shiloh Shepherd, on the other hand, has been combined with many other breeds to produce a large, low key, couch potato, mostly long coated, no to very low drive dog that is meant to be a good all around teddy bear for strictly companion purposes. The breed was developed by someone who based her goals off of what she wanted and remembered the German Shepherd to be like, but as Romy said, dogs are always remembered to be bigger when thinking back. They are very different from what the German Shepherd was and should be as an all around, versatile working dog.

    I have met several Shiloh Shepherds, some at the park or walking down the street, others at expos. I have had good experiences with two Shilohs, and that is it. Those two were friendly dogs, very out going, Labrador Retriever - like in their friendliness and exuberance. The rest (5 or 6 to 8 Shilohs, honestly cannot remember. There were several together) were clearly uncertain and uncomfortable in their surroundings, stuck very close to each other, or to their owners. It was not aloofness - pulled back ears, tucked tails, whale eyes, and a lot of shrinking back and shying away. All the ones I have met were pets only, some dabbled a bit in basic obedience classes, but none were involved in performance sports or even therapy work, which surprised me given the intended nature of the breed.

    Honestly I cannot say I like them at all. But that is me personally. They are the opposite of what I want to see in a dog, and my experiences with them hands on have been less than convincing of their appeal. On the other hand, I know that there are others who have had GREAT experiences with individuals of this breed, so maybe it is simply a matter of location or chance. But either way, that's my experience and opinion.
     
  6. Zoom

    Zoom Twin 2.0

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    There are some good ones out there, but like any "recreated breed", there's a big variation. I've invited someone from my Aussie board who has a Shiloh boy named Bosker to come and give her view. I talked to her a bit when she was looking for a Shiloh and she seemed pretty knowledgeable.
     
  7. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    a shiloh is as opposite of what the "original" gsd was as you can get. The earlier poster was right about that. They don't even compare.
    activity
     
  8. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    actually I think the person wanted to recreate the GSD of their youth. Not the original GSD, but the GSD of yesteryear. Other than the size and the hair they are very much the farm GSD of my child hood, and my dad's childhood. Whether or not they are good, bad etc. But they are like the GSD farm dogs that I have known.
     
  9. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    Well, my mom used to have GSD's growing up, and so did her dad and grandfather, and we have pictures of them around here somewhere. They're all southern dogs, so maybe the hair was different, but they all look like 50 to 60 pound upright squarer dogs than the GSD's of today, but still sable coated.

    My mom loved her dog Queenie :)p) and still talks about what an awesome dog she was. Her dad doted on his dogs, even when he didn't show affection to his children and wife. :p I guess that's how things were back then, anyway.
     
  10. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    sorry, you had such gutless, no nerved, lazy, hairy behemoths from which to draw your comparisons.

    I bet if you put a single sheep in front of them they'd run for the hills.

    i've read enough of the "founders" drivel over the years to know she's a marketer and nothing more. She can't even keep her own story straight half the time.
     
  11. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    That description fits my mom's childhood GSD to a Tee. :rofl1:

    This is Peppy. The amazing cowardly farm GSD of the 1950s. She wasn't an oversized behemoth, but she did yelp and hide behind my 10 year old mother when a black bear peeked inside their tent. Needless to say, my mom isn't very impressed with the GSDs of yesteryear.
    [​IMG]
     
  12. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    Well, maybe she would have had better success with a Bear Dog instead of a Shepherd. ;):p
     
  13. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    True! My grandparents made her sleep in the kid's tent with the idea she'd protect them from wildlife. Peppy didn't think that was very fair.
     
  14. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    Well they were fine with sheep, and cows, and goatsm as well as keeping the coyotes at bay. As are the shiloh's I know. I do think their coat is silly (I mean come on GSDs shed enough with out the extra length)

    But who cares about the founder? I mean I have heard some highly interesting things about Parson John Russell. The breeders today (that I know) don't say their dogs are the original GSD. But I think there is a back lash against the super drivey dogs and the crippled show ring dogs. The breeders are breeding shiloh's for their own reasons, not the founders 'can't keep story straight' reasons. The shilohs I have met are far more like the all round farm dogs that I knew in my youth, and that my grandparents had than any super "on" working GSD, or any wobbly hocked show ring dog. That doesn't mean you have to insult the dogs I spent my childhood visiting. Or those that my followed my friends around farms as we got into trouble.
     
  15. Equinox

    Equinox Active Member

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    Um...

    Hell no, Rin Tin Tin and Strongheart were not valued for their big fluffy, no drive teddy bear personalities.

    That is from the Shiloh Shepherd breed website, the website that most people looking into the breed will be first referred to.


    How many Shilohs have you seen as true working farm dogs or earning their HGH? Just curious?

    Temperament/nerves aside, she is a beautiful dog nonetheless! She looks like a sweet old soul.

    I am not sure if this is directed at my comment, but that IS essentially what I said

    She bred them based on what she remembered them to be like.

    The first part of my post was in response to the comment about them being like original German Shepherds. There was no mention of who made the comment, whether it was the founder or breeders or owners or random people who know of the breed. I simply wanted to clarify/correct that misconception.
     
  16. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    i have never seen a breed try so hard to compare itself and actually promote itself as being better than an original "breed" and be so far away from it and in many regards be the exact opposite.

    I too would love to be pointed to these dogs. i have never seen one. Not one that has even come close to a mediocre at best working GSD, in terms of ability in any regard. I'd love to see just one.
     
  17. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    Yeah, the breed club stuff is kinda weird to me. I find it interesting that the best temperamented shilohs I've met were bred by people who happily admitted they weren't GSDs, volunteered the info that other breeds were outcrossed to, and made no claims to have a working bred dog, etc.

    Honestly the nice ones are perfectly suited to be therapy dogs or family companions. I don't see anything wrong with creating a new breed to fill the niche of large laid back family companion, especially when so many dogs are given up for being too boisterous or developing behavior problems because their exercise/mental stimulation needs aren't being met through life with an average family. I'd rather see a new breed made with a different name and breed standard than mellowing out a working breed.

    It wouldn't surprise me if the shiloh club splits at some point because of differences in goals and acknowledging the real history. Right now the gene pool is so small they can't really afford to.
     
  18. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    The farm dogs that I knew never had to herd. I mean other than maybe the odd bit of driving the cattle from summer pasture to barn yard. But really my JRTs could do that too.

    I was simply saying that those that I have met are very similar in temperament to the farm dogs I grew up around. AND they are similar to the farm dog that I see on farms around here.

    And I do know what the site says. I also know when talking to breeders, those that are out there showing and doing things with their dogs, don't spout that. They say they are breeding a moderate GSD type dog. One that is similar to the GSD that was common in houses and farms a generation or two back. Other than the coat and size I say this does match up with what I remember and from my Dad's stories (his family always had GSDs)
     
  19. Equinox

    Equinox Active Member

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    Oh, just to clarify, I don't see anything wrong with it either. I would much, much rather see people turn to the Shiloh than water down the GSD breed any more.

    So the farm dogs you knew, the old, original German Shepherds, were more like the Great Pyrenees in temperament and drive?

    Dekka, I have no doubt that she bred them towards the image of the GSD SHE knew, and even said that in my very first post. Now, was the GSD you remembered, and the GSD she remembered, similar to the original GSD, and what the GSD is supposed to be? NO!! The German Shepherd Dog is NOT a guardian type breed, but a tending breed. They need to have the ability work 200 - 300+ heavy sheep all day alongside their shepherd. They are shep"herd"s. Herding is in the breed name and should be in the breed's ability, that should have been even more true of the breed back then than it is now. So I do not understand how the Shiloh Shepherd can possess the abilities of the original German Shepherd of old.

    To say that the German Shepherd you and the founder knew then was the original German Shepherd of old is like me saying that a Labrador Retriever with severe human aggression and the inability to retrieve is the Lab I remembered as a child, and therefore the original Lab. Perhaps he was the Lab of MY yesteryear, but if I were to meet human aggressive Labradors, I would NOT feel comfortable nodding and saying "ah, yes, yes, very good. Now this is the Labrador Retriever of old! This is how I remember them to be!".

    Perhaps, though, I am just misunderstanding you. When you stated that Shiloh Shepherds resembled farm dogs more so than German Shepherd Dogs, what are you trying to prove with that observation? Are you actually stating that they are, in fact, the German Shepherds of old, or are you saying that they are better workers than the German Shepherds of today? Are you saying that being farm dogs make them driven and hard working and ideal working dogs? I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but honestly trying to make sense of your comment.


    I am glad to hear that the breeders you speak to don't spout out that information. But the fact still remains that it is there, in bold purple letters on the very first page of the breed website, the website most people will turn to when first hearing of the breed. So for every person who is making a conscious effort to seek out breeders and speak to them, there are just as many, if not more, who are under the false impression that the Shiloh Shepherd they get will be Rin Tin Tin and Strongheart and Lassie all meshed into one.

    I do not believe that they are breeding anything close to the GSD type. Perhaps they are breeding close to the generic, soft farm dog type, but that is not the GSD type.
     
  20. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    I already stated in a prevous reply its not the original GSD. Sigh

    No I am saying that the breeders I have talked to are breeding to a goal that seems reasonable.

    And no we have loads of LGB around here (mostly mareemas though) and these weren't like them at all. Much more into things. Less aloof, and had some herding ability.

    ETA: as a JRT person I do know why it would annoy you. But at least they aren't using the same name. The FCI JRT is short legged and not nearly as drivey as working JRTs. But I am not at all offended by the UKC's russell terrier. Sure its not a 'real' JRT. Some will spout off that they are. Like those sites about Irish JRTs being the 'real thing'. Don't care.
     

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