REWARD MARKER VS "good dog".......
- Thread starter dr2little
- Start date
I'm so sorry. This is horribly off-topic and I know you are feeling ganged up on but I have to ask how you can recommend a dog food with this as it's ingredient list :yikes:
Your fan base looks to you for good recommendations and this is just ....
I strongly recommend you check out this site www.dogfoodproject.com if you want to learn about food ingredients and what makes a good pet food.
I just looked up the price. Over $40 for that :yikes:
Your fan base looks to you for good recommendations and this is just ....
I strongly recommend you check out this site www.dogfoodproject.com if you want to learn about food ingredients and what makes a good pet food.
I just looked up the price. Over $40 for that :yikes:
Joel, I looked at your advertisement on Wikipedia, and searched Animal Planet. Both confirm that someone named "Joel Silverman" is, in fact the host of Good Dog U and that companions for life is your site... the AP clip of good dog u shows a rather pompous man in a yellow shirt teaching clicker training.. if that is not you, who is it and why is he on "your" show?
Yes, it did work for me and my dog. It worked very well. And yes, I did make a choice to use the clicker in a different way. Keep in mind my original comment in the other thread ~ a very specific application with an advanced dog ~ and I never claimed that it was "clicker training".
I have ever been one to get into the science aspect of dog training. I train by feel, I train in the moment, it's all very fluid - almost like dancing. Much of what i do with my dogs can't be put into words.
Incorrectly? Nah...just differently. I have never claimed to do clicker training. I do use a clicker.
Well, except that the moment would have been gone. There was no way to build duration without some way of telling him that he was where he needed to be in order for him to maintain that position.
Because I didn't teach the dog click = reward. I taught the dog click = that's correct. I taught the dog second click = reward. I taught him the meaning that I needed to use.
This wasn't even close to a novice dog.
By the time I could have gotten the word "good" out of my mouth he wouldn't still be good. The clicker was needed for the improved timing.
I have ever been one to get into the science aspect of dog training. I train by feel, I train in the moment, it's all very fluid - almost like dancing. Much of what i do with my dogs can't be put into words.
Incorrectly? Nah...just differently. I have never claimed to do clicker training. I do use a clicker.
Well, except that the moment would have been gone. There was no way to build duration without some way of telling him that he was where he needed to be in order for him to maintain that position.
Because I didn't teach the dog click = reward. I taught the dog click = that's correct. I taught the dog second click = reward. I taught him the meaning that I needed to use.
This wasn't even close to a novice dog.
that's what I do when they've learned something. They get a "good[command]" and a scratch. I always treat after clicking though... I would feel like I was lying to her if I didn't! 
The meat of this conversation seems to centering around the very reason I put the below comment in the "101" thread:
Bob Bailey himself, who is one of the top animal trainers IMO, has stately very clearly in an interview that although he uses a clicker to train, he does not consider himself a "clicker trainer".
One is a specific belief system (sadly, cultish and evangelical in some circles) on how the clicker should be used, the other simply incorporates the clicker into a larger training philosophy, which is not as rigid.
Good topic.
I've found the words "clicker trainer" are not the same as "one who uses a clicker to train". The first is a belief system unto itself, and the other is part of a larger, and more "balanced" perspective.
I've found the words "clicker trainer" are not the same as "one who uses a clicker to train". The first is a belief system unto itself, and the other is part of a larger, and more "balanced" perspective.
One is a specific belief system (sadly, cultish and evangelical in some circles) on how the clicker should be used, the other simply incorporates the clicker into a larger training philosophy, which is not as rigid.
Umm yes you can train duration with a clicker. ALL my dogs learn duration behaviours with clickers. Like heal and stay. I just withhold the click for longer and longer till the behaviour is as long as I want it to be (or within reason)
It might work for you, and thats great, but its not true you can't build duration and reward every click.
It might work for you, and thats great, but its not true you can't build duration and reward every click.
The meat of this conversation seems to centering around the very reason I put the below comment in the "101" thread:
Bob Bailey himself, who is one of the top animal trainers IMO, has stately very clearly in an interview that although he uses a clicker to train, he does not consider himself a "clicker trainer".
One is a specific belief system (sadly, cultish and evangelical in some circles) on how the clicker should be used, the other simply incorporates the clicker into a larger training philosophy, which is not as rigid.
Bob Bailey himself, who is one of the top animal trainers IMO, has stately very clearly in an interview that although he uses a clicker to train, he does not consider himself a "clicker trainer".
One is a specific belief system (sadly, cultish and evangelical in some circles) on how the clicker should be used, the other simply incorporates the clicker into a larger training philosophy, which is not as rigid.
Funny but while I also use a clicker to train, like most people I only use it for a small portion of any specific training. Does that make me a clicker trainer or a trainer who uses a clicker.
I don't really care which....all I care about is that I'm not fooling myself or any of my clients as to my understanding of the science or the appropriate applications of this simple yet powerful training tool.Reward markers, clickers, whistles, words.....all work on the same, static principles. Some folks CHOOSE to incorporate the clicking sound into training without the SOUND principles of a reward marker and that's up to them, but lets not continue to compare apples to oranges.
Here is an example of a 'stay' trained with a clicker..
For those of you who don't know horses lying down is NOT like it is for dogs. They are prey animals and feel very vulnerable in a downed position. I have owned horses that I never got anywhere near when they are down. Its a major sign of trust if a horse will stay down when you come up to it.. so to have a horse that will down on command (on set, at shows etc) is a really big deal.
And if your horse wont' lie down its not like you can push them to the ground and 'make' them either
http://chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86340
For those of you who don't know horses lying down is NOT like it is for dogs. They are prey animals and feel very vulnerable in a downed position. I have owned horses that I never got anywhere near when they are down. Its a major sign of trust if a horse will stay down when you come up to it.. so to have a horse that will down on command (on set, at shows etc) is a really big deal.
And if your horse wont' lie down its not like you can push them to the ground and 'make' them either
http://chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86340
That's great Dekka!! Such a beautiful horse and yes, being able to establish that kind of trust, wonderful.
That's what is so fantastic about reward markers, you can train behaviors that are so contrary to an animals natural instinct without any stress at all.
Very much like training a giraffe to accept facial touching/rubbing for Vet. exam purposes or getting them to voluntarily walk into a squeeze. It's so against their very core nature but we're able to message, check eyes, teeth....big blue tongues
While it can certainly be done and has been done without reward markers (used as they were designed), the time it took was more than double and the trust came much more slowly.
Love that clip Dekka!!
That's what is so fantastic about reward markers, you can train behaviors that are so contrary to an animals natural instinct without any stress at all.
Very much like training a giraffe to accept facial touching/rubbing for Vet. exam purposes or getting them to voluntarily walk into a squeeze. It's so against their very core nature but we're able to message, check eyes, teeth....big blue tongues
While it can certainly be done and has been done without reward markers (used as they were designed), the time it took was more than double and the trust came much more slowly.
Love that clip Dekka!!
I tend to put a NRM into the social (learning) communication catagory, and not part of "everything is operant conditioning".
Social learning can sometimes seem like indirect OC, where one being helps another acheive a reward (praise included), or avoid a punishment (danger), through another's knowledge.
This can happen through observation, direct communication, or associating a similar circumstance.
But then, I'm kinda weird.
Social learning can sometimes seem like indirect OC, where one being helps another acheive a reward (praise included), or avoid a punishment (danger), through another's knowledge.
This can happen through observation, direct communication, or associating a similar circumstance.
But then, I'm kinda weird.
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