REWARD MARKER VS "good dog".......
- Thread starter dr2little
- Start date
:rofl1::rofl1:
I don't think I could word this any better:
maybe this is what he was responding too? LOL
Joel: as you can see, we will question everything, and we will debate. It's not that we're not open to new Ideas. We very much are! We just don't jump on board with someone's ideas unless they can back themselves up. In this case, since you were talking about different training, you should not have made the correction posts that you did. However, we would all love to hear about the methods that you use. And yes, we may question you, but we do it to learn. So please, open a thread about your taining methods. I am always up for learning new things!
I don't think I could word this any better:
maybe this is what he was responding too? LOL
Joel: as you can see, we will question everything, and we will debate. It's not that we're not open to new Ideas. We very much are! We just don't jump on board with someone's ideas unless they can back themselves up. In this case, since you were talking about different training, you should not have made the correction posts that you did. However, we would all love to hear about the methods that you use. And yes, we may question you, but we do it to learn. So please, open a thread about your taining methods. I am always up for learning new things!
interesting.....
I too have a masters agility dog (well more than one dog in masters classes in AAC) I am a vorasious reader and studier of methods.
Yes many agility trainers click and don't feed. But will click and tug, or throw a ball, or let the dog go swim in the pond etc etc. Non food does not mean no reward. I know of NO real agility trainer who advocates clicking and then non rewarding.
So no you don't clicker train, thats fine. But then you shouldn't come on and tell us we are wrong. There are some pretty accomplished people on this forum.
And yes you can click for mellowness on set. Or manicness, or what ever is wanted. Heck I just did a TV shoot a few months ago as I had the only horse that they could find that could 'die' on command on a set. That was all clicker trained in the classical sense. The horse was very calm on set. No one even held her..... Some actor just stood by her
I can tell you from experience if this horse does not get a reward after a click she starts to shut down. A veriable reward schedule works just great, but not non reward after a marker.
I too have a masters agility dog (well more than one dog in masters classes in AAC) I am a vorasious reader and studier of methods.
Yes many agility trainers click and don't feed. But will click and tug, or throw a ball, or let the dog go swim in the pond etc etc. Non food does not mean no reward. I know of NO real agility trainer who advocates clicking and then non rewarding.
So no you don't clicker train, thats fine. But then you shouldn't come on and tell us we are wrong. There are some pretty accomplished people on this forum.
And yes you can click for mellowness on set. Or manicness, or what ever is wanted. Heck I just did a TV shoot a few months ago as I had the only horse that they could find that could 'die' on command on a set. That was all clicker trained in the classical sense. The horse was very calm on set. No one even held her..... Some actor just stood by her
I can tell you from experience if this horse does not get a reward after a click she starts to shut down. A veriable reward schedule works just great, but not non reward after a marker.
wow, I had my marker training down to a f'ing T before I read this thread. As far as i can remember now, reward markers should be folllowed with reward, every time. You can release with no reward, but that is different. Some brought up that variable reward schedules and variable rewards associated with reward markers are different. One is a necessary and beneficial part of dog training, the other is, well just going to slow you down. If you're a successful trainer, it is in spite of using a confusing reward marker/reward schedule, not because of it.
If this is you..
Third video over.. (NO video loads, you have to pick the third video over yourself) http://animal.discovery.com/guides/gooddogu/videogallery/puppy/puppy.html
That is not traditional clicker training. It has completely lost the precision and the point of the click, as there's not one click there's 4, 5, 6 every time. Far more marine. Except with the wrong animal. It's not an effective tool anymore like that.
Third video over.. (NO video loads, you have to pick the third video over yourself) http://animal.discovery.com/guides/gooddogu/videogallery/puppy/puppy.html
That is not traditional clicker training. It has completely lost the precision and the point of the click, as there's not one click there's 4, 5, 6 every time. Far more marine. Except with the wrong animal. It's not an effective tool anymore like that.
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hmmm I went to the animal planet website and watched that one mentioned with one of his segments on clicker training.
He didn't use it very precisely. He went clickyclickyclickyclickyclicky with it at the dog. How is the dog to know what it was that got the clicky? One of the reasons I like it (esp for competative work) is that it is faster than a 'good' or a 'yes' My dog can do multiple behaviours in the time it takes me to say 'yess'. How is she to know which one it was? This is why I use a clicker, so why the clickyclickyclickyclickyclicky I wonder?
He didn't use it very precisely. He went clickyclickyclickyclickyclicky with it at the dog. How is the dog to know what it was that got the clicky? One of the reasons I like it (esp for competative work) is that it is faster than a 'good' or a 'yes' My dog can do multiple behaviours in the time it takes me to say 'yess'. How is she to know which one it was? This is why I use a clicker, so why the clickyclickyclickyclickyclicky I wonder?
Great thread.
I am going to comment on the agility (lol its what I know best). When clickering training or having a reward marker, it is done at a HIGH rate of reinforcement at the beginning of training the 'new' behaviour, the same as any other reward marker training. Then moving to a duration and a THEN a variable reward marker and reinforcement.
Agree with others, reward/reinforcement can be any number of things, food, tug, ball, toy or just being released to do the next obstacle, especially for a dog that 'gets off' on doing agility (although that isn't the best lol).
Absolutely the dogs have to be trained to wait for their reward/reinforcer once they have been built up slowly to that level, that is why we often pair the clicker with Yes!. Not to mention 'jackpots' for an amazing performance of an number of different behaviours that have been trained. One doesn't miss an opportunity to mark and reward a spectacular performance in training (i.e tight turn, nailing a nasty weave entry, contact performance or even a stellar startline stay) , to do so would be foolish and leaving it up to chance for when it counts. And of course thats also variable.
I am going to comment on the agility (lol its what I know best). When clickering training or having a reward marker, it is done at a HIGH rate of reinforcement at the beginning of training the 'new' behaviour, the same as any other reward marker training. Then moving to a duration and a THEN a variable reward marker and reinforcement.
Agree with others, reward/reinforcement can be any number of things, food, tug, ball, toy or just being released to do the next obstacle, especially for a dog that 'gets off' on doing agility (although that isn't the best lol).
Absolutely the dogs have to be trained to wait for their reward/reinforcer once they have been built up slowly to that level, that is why we often pair the clicker with Yes!. Not to mention 'jackpots' for an amazing performance of an number of different behaviours that have been trained. One doesn't miss an opportunity to mark and reward a spectacular performance in training (i.e tight turn, nailing a nasty weave entry, contact performance or even a stellar startline stay) , to do so would be foolish and leaving it up to chance for when it counts. And of course thats also variable.
This is exactly how degraded things can become when self proclaimed 'experts' or TV personalities take the science, and sprinkle it with a 'little' bit of knowledge, add in some creative lisence and a dash of ego...and presto.....solid science shot to he!!..
Unbelievable!!
I've lost so much respect for animal planet anymore...
Unbelievable!!
I've lost so much respect for animal planet anymore...