REWARD MARKER VS "good dog".......

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by dr2little, Oct 10, 2008.

  1. JoelSilverman

    JoelSilverman New Member

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    But Elegy, you're not lying to her. I am not telling you to change what you are doing. If it works and your dog is happy don't change it.

    I will tell you that the more you can offer your dog after you click, the more interesting and fun training becomes. The reason for this is you have so much more to offer.

    Here is an example. It's like you getting paid the same amount very Friday. After a while it would get boring, but if every once in a while you got a little more one week would that make it interesting? The same thing applies to your dog. I like using tactile rewards, treats, toys, and every once in a while try nothing.

    I always use Agility Trainers as a great example. They click and rarely feed, and look at the attitude.
     
  2. xpaeanx

    xpaeanx Active Member

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    If I opend my paycheck on friday and there was nothing in there you can bet I would not show up to work on Monday... so maybe you should pick a different example. I do get bonuses at work depending on production... but I ALWAYS get a paycheck.

    I would stop using the general "agility trainers" on this forum and start using names. there are MANY agility trainers on here, and some have already openly disagreed with you.
     
  3. JoelSilverman

    JoelSilverman New Member

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    OK.. as I said there.... the click is a sound that tells the animal he did the behavior correctly. It is a communication to the animal, and nothing else. That is what is written on the post you just put there, and also what I put on my last post.
     
  4. dr2little

    dr2little Moderator

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    That is completely the opposite of what you've been argueing from the get go.

    You actually blatently called me 'wrong' ....I'm so confused. :rolleyes:

    I think that you need to go back and read your own posts Joel. Members who are not clicker savvy will, and I know that if I'm confused as to your understanding of a reward marker, they certainly will be.
     
  5. JoelSilverman

    JoelSilverman New Member

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    xpaeanx,

    It just seems like I can't say anything to make you happy...
     
  6. dr2little

    dr2little Moderator

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    LOVE IT!!:D:popcorn:
     
  7. JoelSilverman

    JoelSilverman New Member

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    You are using a term .. reward marker.. I use clicker.... Is that where the communication problem is coming from?
     
  8. Kayla

    Kayla New Member

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    I think we are using clicker training for two different things Joel. You use the clicker for communication only- thats great, and if it works for you fantastic. However when most members on this board refer to clicker training we are refering to the style of training using the clicker as a classically conditioned reward marker. In order to maintain this classical condition we always reward after we mark. Like you, I only use the clicker initially to start behaviours off, to get through the shaping process, and add a cue, from there its VRI ( varibale reinforcement schedule) all the way. When I use a variable schedule reinforcement with the clicker I simply change when I click, but never interfere with the strong classically conditioned relationship of clicker and treat.

    Im not saying your way of using the clicker doesnt work- I would have no Idea as I've never trained that way, so dont take this as me bashing you or telling you how to use a clicker, but I wanted to clarify the fundamental differences I see between the way you describe the way you train with a clicker and how I do.

    However I do know that there is a huge amount of studying being done on operant conditioning at the North Texas University, it will be interesting to see what they come out with in the future.

    Best Regards,
    Kayla
     
  9. xpaeanx

    xpaeanx Active Member

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    first off: you are not here to "make me happy" you are here to "educate me." I am your audience. I am your general public. If I have questions, you should be able to answer them. You should be able to back up your methods. That is all I am asking you to do.

    second: reward marker and clicker are the same thing. you click(reward mark) and then you reward(treat).

    third: this is what we want you to explain:

    how do you reward... but then you don't reward?
     
  10. JoelSilverman

    JoelSilverman New Member

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    Thank you for explaining that... I really appreciate it. I was going round in circles with these guys...
     
  11. xpaeanx

    xpaeanx Active Member

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    you're going around in circles bc you have openly told people they are wrong. When we ask you... you answer in circles. If you want to stop doing that... then give a straight answer.

    If your answer is what kayla described than that is not "clicker training" and I rest with my post in your intro of "if you don't use that method, then please do no correct people on how to use it."

    If you want to discuss another method "using a clicker as communication only and NOT a reward marker" we would be happy to hear and learn about it.
     
  12. elegy

    elegy overdogged

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    how is it not lying to a dog to teach them that click = reward and then not reward them?

    i like to think i offer my dogs a reasonable number of different rewards based on what they find rewarding, but that has nothing to do with the fact that i think it's important to reward the dog after every click, no matter what reward i use (from food to tug to chase to "go sniff" to whatever). and yes, i use a varied reward schedule, but once again, if i'm not going to reward that behavior, i don't click it. i can tell my dogs they've done the right thing in other ways.

    like somebody else said, if my paycheck was a big fat zero, you can be sure i'd be out the door. that's breaking the bargain.

    just because they don't use food doesn't mean they're not rewarding the dog for every click. it's not a question of what reward you use- that's a whole separate topic.
     
  13. JoelSilverman

    JoelSilverman New Member

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    Ok... as I mentioned, in the first post the clicker is a message and communication that what the animal did was correct. I see what you are saying in that second post. What it should say is that it signifies that what the animal did was correct . It says "that the reward is coming". My bad.. It is a form of communication.
     
  14. Kayla

    Kayla New Member

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    I agree, as I have never heard of the way you describe using a clicker, please do expand. Also In your intro thread you mention only using clicker training about 5% of the time with dogs, just curious what you use 95% of the time. I too dont have the Animal Planet so id be interested to hear as well.

    Kayla
     
  15. dr2little

    dr2little Moderator

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    I think that what is happening here is that Joels understanding of the use of the clicker is different than what the science prescribes.

    Just because you have a clicker in your hand and you make the clicking sound to communicate to an animal during training...does not mean that you are clicker training. It doesn't matter how long you've been doing it, there is a science behind 'clicker/whistle/MARKER' training and that is what we are TRYING to get to the bottom of.

    This clicker in his case is being used as a sound to signify that they animal has done the right thing but is not paired with a PREDICTABLE reward (of any kind...toy, treat, play). This is what I'm getting from all but a select few of his most recent posts.

    So, the clicker is NOT being used by Joel as a REWARD MARKER.

    Is that correct?
     
  16. xpaeanx

    xpaeanx Active Member

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    that's my understanding of his later posts.... after we grilled him....

    ETA: which is why I'm glad this was taken out of 101. and maybe someone should post the link of this in 101... I would hate some lurkers to read that and think it was the same method... as we have now found out it's not.
     
  17. JoelSilverman

    JoelSilverman New Member

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    If that works for you, great
     
  18. JoelSilverman

    JoelSilverman New Member

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  19. xpaeanx

    xpaeanx Active Member

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    are you serious? I don't even know how to respond to this! You claim the things we do are wrong. When we figure out that you are actually talking about a COMPETLEY DIFFERENT type of training after constantly asking you pretty much the same question THIS is your answer?


    *mods I'm sorry if I come across as snippy... but COME ON!
     
  20. dr2little

    dr2little Moderator

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    Nope, you're spot on xpaeanx. That was not the most informative answer and I too expected a bit more from someone who came into the forum with his resume out front.
     

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