Returning a dog to the breeder - Questions/Rant

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by Teal, Aug 27, 2011.

  1. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

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    While Limit may have went through growth spurts, he always looked healthy and happy,vibrant. Bullseye looks sick in Jairi's pics. His coat lacks shine, his eyes look sunk back and he just looks like a neglected dog. Those are the only 2 pics of Bullseye with Jairi in the last month she had him, she only had him 2 months!!!! The breeder did NOT ignore or neglect to answer their phone. They answered the call as soon as it was received. They drove to pick the dog up ASAP. The breeder received a total of 2 calls during the time he was with Jairi.
     
  2. Lyzelle

    Lyzelle New Member

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    Keeping a dog lean, a skinny dog, and an emaciated dog are all very different things. Could a pup drop that weight in a week to 10 days, given a decent amount of stress and lack of basic care? Or even a growth spurt? Yes. 3 days, not really. There have been plenty of times Macie was lean, Macie was skinny...but never emaciated. As quick as they can drop weight, they can also pick it up just as fast. As the breeder said, 14 pounds in a week. That's no easy feat for many dogs.

    That pup was at least in that ribby condition 8-12 days BEFORE the breeder picked him up, which would have been plenty of time to pack the weight back on. And considering his lack of muscling, I do not chalk it up to him being "lean". Maybe Teal is just flat ignorant on how much weight a large breed pup should be in? Saluki's look skinny and borderline emaciated. Filas, in no way, shape, or form, EVER should.
     
  3. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    I suppose we'll have to disagree on what is healthy dog care with IHG.

    It happens.
     
  4. Locke

    Locke Active Member

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    Maybe this is a stretch, but when my sister's eating disorder got really out of hand, I hadn't noticed her drastic weight drop at all. Now, when I look back at pictures I can't believe I could have over looked something so obvious. I'm pretty sure it was because while it was a very dramatic change, it happened somewhat gradually, and I didn't notice the daily/weekly changes because they were so "small".

    Perhaps this is a similar situation?
     
  5. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    I've got borzois, and raised a litter of puppies over the summer. They can hit a growth spurt and get a little bit ribby over the course of a couple of days. A LITTLE. None of them EVER got to the point where you could see more than two or three ribs when they were resting. And they NEVER got to the point where you could actually count their vertebrae. Ever. No dog ever should. Even skeletor-looking azawakh never get to where you can count vertebrae. The spinal column should be wrapped in muscle.

    Besides, those are sight hounds and not mastiffs. Large breed puppies should be on the lean side, but what goes along with that is great muscle tone and a healthy coat. A dog that is lean because it's getting the right balance of food and activity will always have a healthy coat. A dog that is lean because he's malnourished will have a crappy coat.

    ETA: the breeder shows in IABCA shows, which lean much stronger toward working dogs in working condition. So just because she shows doesn't mean she favors keeping dogs heavy.
     
  6. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    I guess I just don't understand how THAT much weight loss on a pup can be missed for so long. Your sister wore clothes, and you were not responsible for monitoring her development I'm guessing. This was a short coated puppy whose growth should be watched and noted. I could see a pup getting a little ribby and not seeing it right away, but that was far more than a little ribby....
     
  7. JessLough

    JessLough Love My Mutt

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    These.

    Remember, Teal said HERSELF that she was having a hard time giving "it" BASIC care, she said HERSELF this "animal" is not easy to live with.

    I honestly don't think that people thinking the dog got into such a state with her is jumping that far. She was having a hard time even bothering to feed him!

    Do I think she purposely did it? No. Do I think she meant for it to happen? No. Do I think she should man up and admit that maybe it happened? Absolutely.

    ETA: Personally, referring to a pet as "it", "animal", etc. is not a sign of a person who is caring properly for a dog or cares for it's well-being.

    Hell, I've had my fair share of rescues that I absolutely did not get along with. I still managed to feed it, give it the attention it needed, and call it by it's name (I'm using "it" now as general, not a specific animal).
     
  8. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

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    This^^!
     
  9. Lyzelle

    Lyzelle New Member

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    I didn't mean to compare sighthounds all across the board. I was comparing to her dog, specifically, where I can count the vertebra, ribs, and see prominent hip bones. And it's not an uncommon thing I see, but I understand not ALL sighthounds and sighthound people feel the same on that subject.
     
  10. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Sloan was too skinny.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I also took her to the vet (like the breeder supposedly did), ran every test we could think of, and changed her food until we found something that didn't make her poop liquid. Malinois are notorious for scrawny puppies but she was too skinny for comfort.

    Being that skinny can happen but why wasn't the owner taking the pup to the vet out of concern? Did they just let it go knowing the pup would be going to a new home soon and it's easier to let the new owner deal with it?
     
  11. stafinois

    stafinois Professional Nerd

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    And, maybe she should stop getting dogs. I know several breeders who report having her contact them about upcoming litters or rehome dogs. Several different breeds at the same time, even.

    I've "known" Jairi from boards since 2006 or 2007. I began to get a bit suspicious after the first big flush of dogs that she called "forever dogs" before moving to Oregon. But, she reassured us that she wouldn't get over her head again, and I hoped that it was just because she's young. But, no. She got more, and more disappeared. A year or two ago she told me that she was getting rid of everybody but Ruger and Bukra and moving to Alaska. Some of the dogs disappeared, only to have Peshamba and Zealand added. And she's asking more breeders for more. It's a neverending cycle.

    She claims that she didn't get any dogs from the shelter, but she told me that Polaris and his brother were obtained from the shelter. As I mentioned before, she told me that Clairece escaped and went out a window. Now she was stolen? I remember once I asked on Facebook if she still had the trailer on her parents' land. She deleted my comment and sent me a private admonishment that she doesn't want that to be common knowledge. I assumed that she was telling people that she owned that land herself.

    I feel bad because I've been suspicious for years, but I didn't make a public announcement. I can't even remember how many dogs have come and gone, but it's a ridiculously high number. A few cats, too. And, the all of the tarantulas that died because they were kept in an unheated trailer. But, would getting this out there stop anything? Probably not, as there will always be some trashy breeder willing to sell. But, maybe responsible breeders will actually listen and decline. And, maybe having this out there will encourage Jairi to not dump this batch just to prove us all wrong. For the sake of the animals, I hope that's what happens.
     
  12. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

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    I have a hard time judging a dog’s condition from pictures. Unless the light is just right, its hard to really *see* a dog’s condition.

    The difference between this:
    [​IMG]

    And this:
    [​IMG]

    Is over 40 pounds. And this is a SMALL dane. Lunar is just barely 32 inches.
    And at the above weight, you can easily see 3 or 4 ribs on him, and his hip bones are still right there, right under his skin (granted his rear end conformation isn’t the best either), but still, he’s most certainly not at all fat with those 40 pounds added on.
    In the too thin shots you can’t see much of his vertebrae. On that fila pup you can see his spine very clearly.

    My point is, if the picture is enough for me to gasp a little when I see it, that to me says the dog is in pretty bad shape.
     
  13. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

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    I understand skinny dogs. Judge is horrible to keep weight on but I do it and have done it. There have been times in his life when he was skinnier than other but always looks healthy and has always had a healthy look to his eyes. Much the same as Sloan in her puppy pictures.
     
  14. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

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    She contacted me in the same time frame that she got the Fila puppy about a GSD puppy from Judge. I let her think what she wanted too for awhile. I never had plans on placing a puppy with her due to her history with dogs. I declined her finally telling her that they were all placed. The time frame was the same time that she was getting Bullseye and was supposed to get a Magyar puppy. The Magyar breeder declined her as well until this past year after Babe(Peschamba) was returned to her due to some dog issues, then she was placed with Jairi.

    To be completely honest, if I was a breeder and saw the Fila pics and she had one of my puppies, I would be getting the dogs back, no matter the condition they are in. If she can let this happen to one dog, it will/could happen to another.
     
  15. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    There's a big difference between very lean and emaciated. That puppy looks emaciated, starved in the first pictures. And in the later picture with the other dogs, he still looks awful imo. A puppy like that isn't a sight hound, so there's no comparison. His coat is wrong, his countenance and expression are wrong and he's too thin. I can see it even though he's sitting down. Sure, maybe it wasn't intentional, but it's neglect....unless there were diligent attempts through veterinary care to build that puppy back up. Obviously, there isn't any metabolic problem or he wouldn't have been fattened up at all.

    It is indeed heart breaking, sickening to see an innocent animal neglected like that. It should be investigated, even though it is after the fact. Cruelty charges should be made. But the clincher is...there has to be conclusive proof. And even with all the speculation and the way things look, I think it's a waste of time other than making a smear campaign (which can actually sometimes back fire and not do what it's suppose to do...people get immune to gossip and speculation, mere rumors don't always have a lasting effect). Someone closer to the situation should systematically gather up a boat load of irrefutable evidence so that there is not one shadow of a doubt that a particular person caused this due to negligence. And then it should be handed over to the authorities for them to do their job. Or the rest of the job, as I doubt they'll go to the trouble to really delve into it.
     
  16. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    I know you weren't. Just giving the perspective of someone with sight hounds and has dealt with a load of puppies recently.

    Alyosha had a really high metabolism and would get ribby if I fed him the exact same amount of food his littermates were getting. He needed about a third more food to stay at a healthy weight. If he hadn't put it right back on, he'd have gone to the vet and been given stuff like nutrical.

    Strider has gotten pretty thin from time to time, and yes you could see his vertebrae when he was being bathed. Was that okay or healthy? NO! Which is why he was stuffed with satin balls and wormed, etc. For him it turned out to be parasites, it was a problem, the problem was addressed and how he's cool again.
     
  17. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    That's the difference Romy. You did something about it. I don't know if anything was every tried with this puppy. So sad. it sounds like he was pushed by the wayside because of who he was.

    And for the record, I sometimes refer to dogs as "it" and I love dogs and all animals and am responsible with their care. I think that's generalizing and prejudice to think that because of the way someone uses words, that's an irrefuable indication of what's in their hearts. With my own dogs, since I know their names, I tend to use their names or other pronouns like him, her, he, she. But if I don't know a dog or I'm speaking generally about dogs, I might use the word, "it." Doesn't mean I don't love and respect animals.
     
  18. Dogdragoness

    Dogdragoness Happy Spring!!!!

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    LOL Buddy, my rescue ACD (who are supposed to be an independant breed) hates for me to be out of his site, i was woking on the yard & he was always nearby or laying somewhere where he could see me.... i love that in a dog, it sounds like that Fila would have fit well perfectly in my home... too bad he had to go back to his breeder, i love filas & would have taken him.

    as a pup Josefina was very friendly to everyone, but now that she is come 2 yrs old, its like she is a totally different dog now. she has become very suspicious of strangers & will bark & alert me to them now.

    You have a Dogo & a corso.... i hate you :cry: :hail:. i want one sooooo bd but i am also on Puppy put-off due to no job security :(, i tried to find a good dogo breeder here in TX that was reasonably close (i like to meet the breeder & their dogs in person) & the ones that were sent up loads of red flags to me :(.

    there are a few really good corso breeders here tho & the more i read about them the more i love them :)
     
  19. yoko

    yoko New Member

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    I think the main thing was she was saying it while saying things like the tiniest interaction was hell.
     
  20. Shakou

    Shakou New Member

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    I'm coming in a bit late on all this, but read through most of the thread, saw the pictures people are making a fuss over, and wanted to add a little something. My husband adopted Charlotte as a stray 5 years in Nashville, TN while hitch hiking through the area. When he first found her, she was emaciated, filthy, and covered in wounds. He got her to a vet, had her spayed, updated on all her shots, her wounds treated, and got her on a good dog food where she that she was fed twice a day.

    But obviously she didn't make any grand transformations over night. For the first two weeks, my husband got a LOT of nasty, rude remarks from people while walking around with Charlotte, accusing him of neglecting her. Little did these idiots know that he had infact saved her life, and was taking extremely good care of her.

    I don't know the whole situation here. 50+ posts is a lot to read in a short amount of time, but my point is things aren't always what they seem. The person should have taken the time to get to know the puppy, the breed, and the breeder a little better before taking it home, and I think she was over reacting on claiming "every interaction was hell", but to accuse them of neglect due to some pictures that were taken who knows when is a bit extreme and rude.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2012

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