Responsible Pit owners

[akaspaddero]

I need some help.
We have three dogs. Jake, 3.5 years old Lab/BC Mix, Zoie, 2.5 years old Lab/Pit mix, and our newest is Maddie, 10 months old American Stafford Terrier. They are all fixed
Our neighbors were going to take Maddie to the pound, and we asked if we could have her.
Now, Maddie and Zoie play fight all the time. Jake and Maddie are another issue. Jake is always putting Maddie in her place when she starts to get rough with Zoie (or Zoie gets rough with her), but he is always correcting Maddie. Yesterday, Jake and Maddie got into it. Their voices changed, hair was razed and teeth were shown. People around me backed off and were scared. I am really afraid there could be some serious damage done to Maddie or Jake. In the beginning Maddie would bow down when he tried to play ref or when she would try to take a ball and he would snarl at her. But now, Maddie isn’t taking any of his huff.
I have been reading all kinds of stuff on line that is starting to frighten me; only have pits, no more than one pit, don’t have pits with labs, never leave a pit alone with another dog, yada, yada, yada.
Has anyone had a pit with other breeds of dogs? Has anyone had this type of aggression between dogs they have raised? What helps? What should I do? Any suggestions? I want to be a responsible person and I don’t want to find a new home for any of my furkids or come home to one being hurt.
Maddie wasn’t really socialized when she was young, and I have started to do that slowly. And yes, Jake is the alpha, but I am beginning to think maybe Maddie is trying to become the alpha?? I don’t know enough about the pack mentality. If anyone knows, please share.

 

[akaspaddero]

Anyone?

 

[mojozen]

Your girl may very well try to become the alpha of your pack... also pit bulls and their cousins can become dog aggressive anywhere from 6 months to 5 years of age. I know of several pit bull owners who have multi pit households where the dogs must be seperated at all times... otherwise they will kill each other. You may want to do some research on multi pit households via either pbrc.net or badrap.org.

 

[elegy]

i 100% agree with don't leave a pit bull alone with another dog and with never trust a pit bull not to fight. these are fighting dogs. they're often pretty pushy boogerheads, and they can be quick to get offended. that doesn't mean they're not fantastic dogs, it just means you need to be conscienscious and to take reasonable precautions.

this might help: http://www.badrap.org/rescue/multi_pits.cfm

how long have you had maddie?

 

[Roxy's CD]

First, just a comment, it sounds like Maddie is starting to settle in, and wants to find a comfortable place on the pecking order. The reason she was submissive before was because she was in a new place. She's settling in now.

I don't really want to give you any advice though. It is possible seeing as the dogs are older, that it might not work. But don't take that to heart. Fighting for dominance can be very scary, yet most of the time no one even really gets injured.

I've got an APBT, male 1 year, and rott/dobe, female, almost 2.

And they get along great. Yes, they have some pecking order issues, but they are not fights about who is the boss. Most of the time, Hades has just crossed a line, and Roxy the female, is just putting him back in place.

Hades has never been "dominant" with Roxy. Just sometimes he gets a little bit excited and forgets his boundaries.

It is totally possible to successfully integrate a pitbull into any family. BUT, it's only possible, with proper training, certain personality traits etc.

I'm sorry that I don't really have any advice, but to your question: Yes, I have a pitbull, and another dog and they get along fine.

Edit (posted at same time): Are you serious elegy? You never leave your two dogs alone?

That's absolutely ridiculous to me and would not fit my lifestyle at all. Roxy and Hades are left alone together often, and there's never been a problem. Roxy goes to sleep and Hades shreds toilet paper.

I'm sure with some dogs and certain temperments that statement is true, but as always there are exceptions, so I do not agree 100%. I can't, because my "vicious pitbull" is fine with my other dog, and they are left alone often.

 

[mojozen]

Roxy - I have heard of other pit bull owners who used to have the same experiecnes you did where their dogs got along great and then one day they just got into a tiff while the owners were away. The owners ultimately came home to a house with the walls smudged in red.

I don't have more than one dog now, but I do plan that when i get my second dog they will ALWAYS be crated apart from each other. I'd rather be safe 100% of the time than sorry even a .1% of the time. But that's just my opinion based off of the stories i have heard and witnessed among my friends

 

[Roxy's CD]

I have no worries at all. It's not a thought it my mind, and there's no reason for it to be.

I know Hades. And there is nothing dominant about this dog, plain and simple. If the day comes that he attacks Roxy, I will literally write you a check. You can have my store, my house, my boat everything.

I am that positive, positive, it's not that I trust him, or I "believe in him". I know him. And that is something as ridiculous as saying pigs fly.

I'm not saying that all pitbulls are like him, and I don't really care to argue that I should be worried that Hades is going to flip out one day and I'm going to come home to a blood ridden house.

It's just not possible. Period, end of story.

I'm sure if it never happens, you'll just say I was lucky anways. Call me lucky and stupid or it's the fact that I know my dog whichever. Does not change the fact that Hades is the most submissive dog period, let alone pitbull, that I have ever encountered.

Anyone that has met him, including experienced trainers would vouch the same.

 

[mojozen]

Roxy - not attacking you or telling you should be worried. I was more just saying that I have heard of pits attacking their housemates even after living together for years. It had nothing to do with dominance, but it did end bloody. Because of those stories... I PERSONALLY will not leave my future second dog alone with my first dog. If it doesn't happen to you then there's nothing about luck to do with it... you just have a stable personalities to work with.

And i really don't need the additional stress of a house, store, or boat on top of everything else I deal with... so you can keep those.

 

[Roxy's CD]

What did it have to with? If not dominance?

I in no way am implying that all pitbulls have the same temperment as Hades, but I do know of a number of people with pitbulls, including a trainer in Muskoka that leaves her two pits alone with, some kind of terrier, I forget the name it starts with an S, and her GSD.

I'm just saying, that there are some pits with temperments, and it's not fair to say that all pits cannot be left alone at anytime for any reason.

It's absurd. On top of the fact, and this is not relevant to the OP, that Hades has known Roxy since he was five weeks old. It's not like they were introduced later on in life.

They were raised together, are both properly socialized and on top of that, I've never had any type of "dominance" or "aggression" issue with Hades. Roxy has had issues but not dog aggression issues. LOL. Although that would be much easier to deal with! LOL

To put it blankly, I just don't think it's fair to say that no pitbull can be left with another dog for any reason. If you feel that you wouldn't like to take the risk, that's personal. But, with me, it's not a risk.

Edit: I think I remember the terrier, is there such a thing as a Skipper terrier? I think that's the name. It was bugging me, had to add it. LOL

 

[mojozen]

I think i stated that i said i PERSONALLY wouldn't do it.

Maybe Elegy has the same reasons ... maybe not. I am not speaking for him/her or the OP or you.

I wouldn't take the risk with any dog but especially not with any kind of terrier or bully breed... but then again I also keep my dog crated for his personal safety as well. Generally he sleeps when I am gone, but I do not want to ever take the risk where he might get it in his ear to go where he shouldn't, or bug where he shouldn't, or if there's a fire or something he wouldn't be easily found by the firefighters...

Personally, in my personal life, no risk is worth not crating my dog seperate from other dogs or other situations.

 

[Roxy's CD]

If you feel that you wouldn't like to take the risk, that's personal. But, with me, it's not a risk.

I know you said personally. I can read LOL

I was just asking what the circumstances revolving around the pit on pit attack were.

I can understand why some people would not be comfortable leaving their dogs unattended. I just don't feel that it's a risk at all, personally, in my situation with the dogs I own now. And I will never get a dog that can't be left alone with other dogs unsupervised. It's just not logical or reasonable to me, and until I came to this board, I've never heard of people separating their dogs. Why have two dogs if they don't get along or you can't trust them alone? Just makes no sense.

 

[elegy]

Edit (posted at same time): Are you serious elegy? You never leave your two dogs alone?

That's absolutely ridiculous to me and would not fit my lifestyle at all. Roxy and Hades are left alone together often, and there's never been a problem. Roxy goes to sleep and Hades shreds toilet paper.

I'm sure with some dogs and certain temperments that statement is true, but as always there are exceptions, so I do not agree 100%. I can't, because my "vicious pitbull" is fine with my other dog, and they are left alone often.

nope. not ever. never have. never will. it's is absolutely not worth the risk to me and i don't think it's at all "ridiculous". i have two dogs who, if triggered, will fight to win, period. yes, 99% of the time they get along famously. but i'm not willing to take the risk of coming home to torn up or dead dogs.

so they're crated when i'm not here.

it's got absolutely nothing to do with dominance or pack status. luce has been #1 dog forever and mushroom, after the first couple of weeks, has never questioned or challenged that at all. it has nothing to do with when in life they were introduced to each other. it has to do with the fact that both of them are pit bulls.

the worst fight they've ever had (and they've never had one that resulted in wounds bad enough to need medical attention, but i'm sure part of that is that i'm always there. always.) was over a smell in the grass. a smell for crying out loud!

so yeah. they're never alone unsupervised. it's not a big deal. it's the way it's always been. it's the way it'll always be.

i think it's foolish to think a pit bull will never show dog aggression, that a pit bull will never fight. they were bred to do precisely that.

you can do whatever you like with your dogs, but personally, as long as those people i respect most in the pit bull world advocate never leaving them alone together, as long as i continue to see dogs of all breeds come in to the hospital where i work with severe dog fight wounds even though they've lived together their whole lives and never fought before, and as long as i have these two capable dogs with occasionally short fuses, i'll continue to crate and supervise.

 

[mojozen]

i think it's foolish to think a pit bull will never show dog aggression, that a pit bull will never fight. they were bred to do precisely that.

Well said. This is also how i feel... i respect my dog's heritage. I respect my dog's abilities. I do not believe he'd fight, but I do not give him the chance to do so. Nor will i in the future when I get my second dog, who will hopefully be either a greyhound or a full blood pit bull.

 

[elegy]

my dogs were kind enough to dispel with the mystery right from the beginning- they're both quite willing to fight in the right circumstances, thanks

but i do think it's silly that we put so much stock in other breeds' heritages- in herding dogs to herd, in retrieving dogs to retrieve, in sighthounds to chase- and yet so many people want to ignore the pit bull's heritage. i guess because it's inconvenient. (i find this is especially often the case with people who have young pit bulls who have not come into their own yet.)

there's a gal i know locally- i first met her at a rally obedience match- who has a pit bull and a pit mix. one has multiple agility titles, the other has at least a rally title, so she's obviously an active and hands-on owner. but she leaves them alone together on a regular basis and she's had to have both of them surgically put back together on multiple occasions (good thing she's also a vet tech!).

it's just not worth it to me.

 

[Roxy's CD]

It sounds as though, from your words though that you wouldn't be surprised if something happened. Especially seeing as they had a fight over a smell.

My point is that, I do not expect it, and it's not irrational denial.

Not every border collie is a herder, not every lab is a great retriever, just as every pitbull does not have that dog aggression that as you mentioned and is 100% true that they were bred for.

If there is good reason, or you personally don't feel comfortable all the more power to you.

But because there is no reason, never has been to keep them separate, I don't feel that that makes me a bad pit owner, or in denial or whatever else.

Elegy, I didn't mean that I think it's ridiculous that you do that, but I, peronsally would feel ridiculous having to keep my dogs separate. They both enjoy their alone time in the house, Hades as mentioned ripping apart stuffed animals or shredding paper and Roxy having naps.

(i find this is especially often the case with people who have young pit bulls who have not come into their own yet.)

I'm not saying that it is, but if this statement is directed towards me, I can assure you, that major personality traits are often clearly visible in early age. Yes, often dominance issues occur much more often when dogs hit 2 or 3, and I am well aware of that. I observe my dogs every day, watching for signs of aggression from both Roxy and Hades. I just don't say that Hades is submissive, I observe it, daily. And if one day, I observe anything but, he will be crated when he's unsupervised. But until I see anything that makes me nervous, or makes me feel as though it is a risk, given Hades personality, which is so much more than happy go lucky, willing to please or submissive, there is no need.

I'm not in denial about the pitbulls heritage. But I'm not going to place breed standards on my dog, just because that's his breed. Just as you wouldn't label an obvious aggressive golden, a caring, calm submissive dog, just because that's a trait that goldens are known for. There are exceptions to every breed.

Why is it so hard to understand that the pitbull is a breed, and there are exceptions to them as well? Breed specific qualities play a huge role in a dog's personality, but how often have you heard of BC's that have no herding intuition? Or retrievers that don't like the water? OR dare I say pitbulls that have no dog on dog aggression?

I respect the pit's heritage, but I only use it where it applies clearly for my dog. I'm not going label him something that he isn't.

 

[elegy]

My point is that, I do not expect it, and it's not irrational denial.

and my point is.... maybe you SHOULD expect it.

and no, dog aggression is not always visible at a young age. many pit bulls love other dogs until they reach the age of 2ish and then things frequently change. it may become a gradual lessening of tolerence, or they may literally change overnight.

it is NOT a dominance issue.

it's an issue that a normal snark or snorf that occurs in the normal events of lives in ANY multi-dog household turns into a full-out battle because it's instinctual. outside stimuli can overload a pit bull and flip them into fight mode. overly exuberent play can flip them into fight mode.

yes, there are cold pit bulls, but just because a pit bull hasn't fought doesn't mean they won't. it may just mean they haven't had their trigger flipped yet.

 

[Roxy's CD]

Yes, often dominance issues occur much more often when dogs hit 2 or 3, and I am well aware of that

Although, from what I've read, and been told, it is a dominance issue. You state otherwise. So why then is there a certain age? The basis behind the dominance issues at a certain age, is horomone levels and the "puppy attitude wearing" off. Also a desire for a higher position in the pecking order all comes with age. Even this statement that my vet, trainers, behaviourlist and average joe's have mentioned to me is not always true.

You must think I'm a retard, and just got a pit, didn't think about the consequences, didn't think about socializing, didnt' think about training, and didn't think about evaluating Hades temperment at all. I just got him, his at my house, I don't socialize, I don't train, I don't observe behaviours.

Well, I guess I'm just gonna have to sit here and cross my fingers and hope nothing "flips his trigger". And I'll have to admit than, by your standards of course, I'm a horrible pit owner, because I claim to know my horrible, ticking time bomb pitbull.

So what you are saying than, quite simply. Is that every dog that was bred to do something, DOES IT.

EVERY retriever retrieves.
EVERY herder herds.
EVERY "guarder" guards.
EVERY pitbull is dog aggressive.

And if they don't, when they hit two years old they will, or three"ish".

Whilst I do not agree with that at all, I still do respect that that's what pits were bred to do. But still, I'm not going to label my dog something that it is not. Just as many people who work in the field ditch dogs that just don't have it. Hades just doesn't have it. Is that not possible to you?

Or every dog that was bred for something just does it?

As you mentioned, ANY breed is capable of "turning" at a certain age. So why then don't you tell ANYONE with a multi-dog household that leaving dogs unattended alone is irresponsible?

 

[doberkim]

i just got home 2 hours later after spending the past 3 hours sewing together two dogs that lived together their entire lives, and just tore each other open. one dog has no less than 50 bite wounds all over his body, many which required drains. the other has 4 large puncture wounds all over her face, but she "won" and is much less injured than the other dog. even with our very fair pricing, this owner has just dropped over a grand for a "quick" dog fight.


so the point being, you would rather risk your dogs lives, than separate them. you would rather bet that hades is better than the majority of pit bulls and overcome what generations of breeding has bred into him. socialization has nothing to do with it - i socialized the hell out of my dobermans and they would still have protected me hands down, when push came to shove.

roxy - why dont you go argue this with other responsible pit bull owners?
www.pitbullforum.com

i am sure these people - heavily involved with pitties in dog sports, rescue, and other venues, have had a hell of a lot more experience than 99% of people on this board with pit bulls and mixes thereof.

personally? the main reason i DONT have a pit in my home right now, is dog aggression, plain and simple. i take a risk with any breed being aggressive, but i take a bigger one with a pit bull, and at this time in my life, its not something i want to deal with. im never going to try to pretend my dogs are better than their breeding and their breed history.

 

[Roxy's CD]

So then to answer my question posed towards elegy, doberkim, you feel that no dog, regardless of breed should be left alone attended, regardless of how long they lived together or not.

That takes the onus off me, as the only pit owner apparently on this board that does not separate my dogs, but onto anyone with a multi-dog household to separate their animals.

If that's your experience that's your experience. But there are many multi-dog households that do just fine. So that discredits that statement to a point. And would do the same for the "pit" singled out as a breed.

As a vet, I would hope that you wouldn't have had that outlook. While my vet respects the breed as well, she knows that there are exceptions to every breed, positive and negative. While you must encounter horrible situations like the one you mentioned above, you must know of people who live happy lives with a multi-dog household even if they have pitbulls.

 

[doberkim]

First off, where did I say every breed needs to be separated?

As a vet, I recommend to every pit bull owner to crate their dog when they leave the house. I recommend every pit owner completes at least basic obedience with their dog. I recommend every single pit owner spays and neuters their dog. I recommend that every pit owner never takes their dog to the dog park. I recommend every pit owner never lets their pit off leash in public. I recommend evrery pit owner never leaves their dog outside unattended, even in a fenced in yard.

I recognize that pit bull owners need to be THAT MUCH MORE vigilant in todays day and age. I'm not going to argue - clearly you are going to believe what you want about your dogs no matter what, so why do we waste our time? You don't want to hear it - go to the pit bull forums and tell it to them. Go hear THEIR stories.