responsible breeding?

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by rottiegirl, Oct 19, 2005.

  1. rottiegirl

    rottiegirl Guest

    Do you think breeders should stick to the breed standard, or completely ignore it because they dont like the standard? I recently spoke to a pit bull breeder who produces 90 pound pit bulls, eventhough the standard calls for 60 pound pits. Her dogs also have very bad conformation. I told her that she should take the standard into consideration, and she told me that she does not like the standard. She likes bigger "bullier" pits. Is this right? Isnt she ruining the breed?
     
  2. DanL

    DanL Active Member

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    I think that anyone who is breeding should not only follow the breed standards, but also make sure that they are making the breed better, be it temprament, drive, or whatever other traits the breed has. People who breed for looks or color or things like that usually ignore other issues like temprament. You need to look at the big picture.
     
  3. SHADOW_THE_STAFF

    SHADOW_THE_STAFF Staffie Mad

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    Who decides if something is "bettering the breed"?

    I know nothing about breeding but if a breeder decided they liked the dogs better heavier, and said that, I dont know that, they lived longer lives because they were bigger (im making this up as i go alone here), couldnt they say they were bettering the breed by making them heavier? What I mean is who decides that two dogs can be bred, its the breeder isnt it?

    What Im saying is that if the breeder rottiegirl mentioned thinks that the breed is better being bigger, couldnt she say she's bettering the breed?

    Im not saying it should be done or that I agree with it, im just trying to figure out who regulates it.

    Who decides what is bettering the breed?
     
  4. DanL

    DanL Active Member

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    I don't think that breeding dogs outside of the standards that are adopted by the organizations that oversee th breed is bettering it. Breeding a dog to get a particular color, or weight, or height, and not worrying about something as important as temprament is irresponsible IMO. So now you have your perfect color or size, but the dogs are fear biters or not aggressive enough or too aggressive or any other number of personality issues. Is the breed better now?
     
  5. SHADOW_THE_STAFF

    SHADOW_THE_STAFF Staffie Mad

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  6. DanL

    DanL Active Member

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    Yeah, I don't know about breeding either but I'm pretty sure that the clubs for each breed are who regulates the standard. I imagine most breed standards have been in place for a long time and are maybe modified from time to time.

    I agree completely about the woman breeding the way large dogs as they could have other issues that could be detrimental to the breed.
     
  7. yuckaduck

    yuckaduck Guest

    Breed standards are set for a reason and should be follow as closely as possible with in reason. I would like heavy boned shepherds but I am not interested in giants either. I want them to be as close to the breed standard as possible, including temperment and size. I am looking for a high drive but that is normal for this breed too. I see no need to venture off on your own and ignore breed standards. I also believe that you need to better the breed and produce reliable dogs for the purpose in which you are breeding. I am breedign for working dogs so I am looking for dogs who can reliably work, otherwise it is not a good choice to breed with and should be spayed or neutered.
     
  8. Gempress

    Gempress Walks into Mordor

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    I think breeders should try to stay to the breed standard as closely as possible, no matter what. I can't remember where I read this, but it was an interesting point that has stuck with me. (forgive me if the quote isn't exact!)

    "If you have a doberman who loves everybody, has no prey drive, doesn't bark, isn't at all suspicious of strangers or protective, and is a complete couch potato, then you have a good housepet. But you also have a bad doberman, according to the breed standard."

    That's where I think people run into problems with the standard. Some breeders try to make the breed into something they personally would like, instead of sticking to what the breed should be. While I would love a couch-potato doberman, I agree that breeders should try to keep the intense, steady, temperament that the breed was developed for.
     
  9. gaddylovesdogs

    gaddylovesdogs no touchy

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    I think size is important - I hate it when I see 150 lb. labs. It bugs me sooo much, because they really aren't labs when they're that big - they're mixes. Labs aren't that big. If their four feet tall and over one hundred pounds, they simply aren't purebred labs.

    But if I were breeding, say, border collies (my favorite breed :D), I would breed them the right size but I'd breed them for what they were bred to do - herd. They weren't meant to be poofy, fluffy, dogs that want to sleep all day, hate walks, and have 0% herding ability.
     
  10. RD

    RD Are you dead yet?

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    Stick to the standard. IMO there is no excuse for breeding dogs to be different than the breed standard asks. NO breed standard will call for dogs to be built incorrectly for the work that they were originally supposed to do. It is the breeders and judges who mis-interpret those standards and buy into show-ring trends that leads to people messing up these breeds.
     
  11. rottiegirl

    rottiegirl Guest

    The breeder also says that she producess "rare" blue eyed pit bulls, but that is a huge fault in the standard. She says that the dogs have great temperments. She also admited that her dogs dont have much of a drive, but pits are supposed to have a really high drive. Her dogs look very fat, their stomachs hang! I dont think it is right to ignore the standard when you are a breeder, even if your dogs have a good temperment. How could a person call their dog a pit bull when it doesnt resemble one at all?
     
  12. doberkim

    doberkim Naturally Natural

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    i agree with what most have said --
    what betters the breed is breeding a TOTAL dog, regardless of what the breed should look like, or what job it performs.

    total dogs are healthy, structurally correct, long lived, and have proper temperaments, as well as in some cases, the ability to do work.

    if your dog is horribly oversized, it simply will not hold up - its not standard, there are health concerns that come with oversized dogs, and it sure wont be able to work, not long.

    most breed standards are describing the ideal of what that dog should be, and like RD said, it wont be a dog that cannot do the breeds original function (if it had one).

    if you start taking each dog and breeding purely what you want, what makes it that breed?

    say i wanted dobes (since weve already brought that up) - but wanted longer fur, and a taller dog, and wanted heavier bone, and wanted a thicker chest, and a longer nose --

    so what in the end would make that a doberman at all?
     
  13. candy722

    candy722 New Member

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    blue eyed pit bulls? IS She producing mutts?
     
  14. rottiegirl

    rottiegirl Guest

    She says that her dogs are pure bred, and that they come from champions.
     
  15. Zoom

    Zoom Twin 2.0

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    How is this even a question? Breed standards were put into place for a reason, so the dogs could do what they were intended to do, whether that be herding, hunting or lap dogs. Diverging from breed standards only proves that the person breeding has no business doing so, especially to the extent that they are breeding for recognized faults because they think they "look pretty".
     
  16. rottiegirl

    rottiegirl Guest

    Yeah, but I have talked to more than just one breeder, and they all say the same thing. They explain to me that a person does not have to fallow the standard if they dont want to. But I thought it was just wrong, so I asked for your opinions.
     
  17. Zoom

    Zoom Twin 2.0

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    True, they don't have to follow it if they don't want to, but if they don't like what the breed standard is, then why are they breeding that type of dog?
     
  18. rottiegirl

    rottiegirl Guest

    Exactly!! I told them that if they like bigger dogs, switch to a mastiff, american bull dog, rottie, or an am staff.
     
  19. RD

    RD Are you dead yet?

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    Of course, nobody -has- to breed to the standard. They can all make their little deviations and label them as 'rare', that's what makes them irresponsible breeders.

    I agree that if someone wants to breed for something so radically different than the breed they have, they probably have the wrong breed. But if they can't appreciate the value of the standard in a breeding program, then IMO they shouldn't be breeding. Period.
     
  20. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    I agree to a certain point. When I got my 1st golden in 1949 the standard was different than today's in height and weight. When I started breeding I was in the middle standard ... when I stopped, I was at the high end. None of my Goldens were over the standard, but the show breeds were going shorter legs, lighter in color etc. I went by what the original standard was. Ch.Lorelei's Golden Rip ( my Point's sire) was a great big, dark boy and one of the first to be in the Golden Retriever Hall of fame in both bench , obedience and field work. Today he wouldn't even be recognized I bet.
     

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