Rally

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by crazedACD, May 14, 2012.

  1. crazedACD

    crazedACD Active Member

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    Alright..just curious here. Would it be unwise of me to enter in a rally trial without actually ever doing anything in rally? :popcorn: I'm kind of bored and have been wanting to do something..I just can't find classes that work within my schedule (why can't I find any Saturday classes?!). I suppose a show and go match might be better but I don't want to look dumb, haha!

    Romeo is home-trained, though we did do some drop in comp-o classes. Oh and a basic ob class way back. I think honestly he is fine with the exercises, it's just me that doesn't know what I'm doing in rally. I just need a little brush-up in public. I've been watching some videos and feel he would be up to par. I am considering going to one and just observing, can you do that? :p
     
  2. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    Just look over the rules, memorize the signs, and give it a go! You can look up videos of signs if they're hard to understand, or ask here of course. I know when I started some of the explanations of signs are so not helpful, but once you see it done once it turns out to be the easiest thing in the world.

    You can most definitely just go and watch, I highly recommend doing so. It's just all so much easier to understand when you see it in person.
     
  3. Toller_08

    Toller_08 Active Member

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    I've never taken a Rally class and haven't had much of an issue on a course. That said, I did have somebody that helped me along the way so I at least knew the rules and what the signs mean. But I screwed up on a station last summer and cost Dance her title. I think it would be a lot more straight forward and I'd probably get higher scores if I took a class. It's not hard, but it's easy to feel lost sometimes if you're not used to it.
     
  4. ~Tucker&Me~

    ~Tucker&Me~ and Spy.

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    I trained it on my own and did one drop in class a day before my first trial. We got our RN that weekend :D Give it a go, but definitely go watch a trial first. For example, I didn't know we were supposed to be to the right of the signs until I did the drop in class the day before :p woops.
     
  5. crazedACD

    crazedACD Active Member

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    Thanks guys. Are there any major differences between APDT and AKC? Which is better?
     
  6. ~Tucker&Me~

    ~Tucker&Me~ and Spy.

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    Well I would have gone with APDT but there were no trials around my area, at least not with any frequency. I opted for CKC because trials would happen regularly where I live. That might be worth checking out because if there aren't many APDT trials near you it might be more worth your while to just go with AKC.
     
  7. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    There are no APDT trials around here, so I started in AKC and then UKC. I like UKC much better.
     
  8. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

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    Rally Novice is really very straight forward IMO. Definitely doable without a specific class, and many people do. Once you get in to advanced and excellent though, especially now with the new signs and new rules, I think you need to either memorize the rule book or at least have a place to do run throughs where folks are willing to help.

    We went to a trial Saturday and lots of people were having trouble with the halt-two steps-CTH sign. Not because their dogs couldn’t do the exercise, but because of handler errors - waiting for the dog to catch up instead of moving on and having the dog catch up to the handler. Depending on the judge and how much of a stickler they are, you can easily NQ on handler errors despite having a great run. I would know, I’m really good at costing us points over stupid stuff.:rolleyes:
    One judge took off 10 points for taking too big of a step in a pivot, another time it was 10 points for not pausing AFTER the moving stand (you can’t pause when putting the dog in the stand but you have to pause after you circle the dog and return to heel). It can get kind of complicated, and if you don’t know the ins and outs, those handler errors really start adding up.

    I have not shown APDT b/c there aren’t many in this area. AKC judging has gotten tougher IME, but APDT has the reputation for being tougher judge-wise (I train with an APDT judge). The biggest difference from the dog’s POV is that you can carry treats in the ring in APDT, not in AKC. I’m not sure how I feel about that, but there it is...
     
  9. elegy

    elegy overdogged

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    Personally I like APDT better because the courses are longer and more interesting. I do think AKC is easier. In APDT you *cannot* double command or you'll lose 3 points. In AKC rally you do not lose points for repeated commands.

    I think the hard part about rally is knowing all the ins and outs and little rules. Like you have to pause after the walk around exercises in AKC. Those little things that can make a big difference. A class with a good instructor will help a lot with that.
     
  10. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    I agree with what Elegy said. Around here there are loads of CARO rally (equiv of APDT) and its open to all breeds. Even if I could do CKC rally I like the challenge of CARO (its a bit harder, ie you can't flub a station and still Q)

    That said I never took a rally class, though I have taken other classes. Dekka got her Rally novice and advanced magna cum laude. Kaiden also has his RNMCL. All without rally classes. I find as long as you are good at researching the rules you should be fine.
     
  11. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

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    With the new rules, yes, you can absolutely lose points for repeated commands. Depends on the judge and how tough they are, but the rules do state you can take points off for slow commands and repeated commands. What you do not get dinged for in rally (that you do get dinged for in regular obedience) is encouraging the dog.
    For example. If I'm going through the spirals encouraging my dog with my voice (no fake luring, snapping or clapping) I'm fine. But if I halt and get a slow sit or have to ask for it more than once, you bet some judges will take anywhere from 1 to 10 points off. Just depends on the judge and how they interpret the rules - see below.
    I always look at the judges sheet, and I've knocked over a cone and got no points off, ticked a jump and only got 3 points off, then on a really nice 180 pivot - forward, I didn't keep my feet "all the way" in the pie plate before going forward and lost 10 points. Go figure.

    What I've noticed in AKC is that the judges in our area are scoring a lot tougher and are more in-line with what you will see in the traditional obedience ring. Definitely in the past AKC judges were just Q'ing everything, but the last couple of shows I've seen a marked difference, not just after April, but leading up to it too. IMO its a good thing.
    Now, according to FB folks, in some areas they aren't even using the new signs and I've seen some videoed runs that Q'd that around here would totally not have Q'd, so I think there are some regional differences too.

    AKC rules - I've bolded some parts.
    I think part of the confusion is that in traditional obedience you have can only use verbal OR signal. Rally states you can do both - which in the traditional obedience world counts as a double command.
     
  12. elegy

    elegy overdogged

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    But losing points for a slow sit is not losing points for a double command.
    Other than the bit about no pleading (which I think is hilarious), I do not see anywhere in the rules that it specifies that you are not allowed to give a second command.

    Say I'm doing the halt/down/walk around sign. I tell my dog to stay and step off to circle around him. When I'm behind him, I can tell he's a little antsy, so I remind him quietly to stay. There is no hesitation, or delay in what the dog does. The exercise is performed entirely correctly. I see nowhere in the AKC rules that there would be any deduction under the new rules. In APDT it would be -3. Which I'd rather take instead of the NQ for breaking (though I think now you can redo the walk around exercises-- it used to be that you couldn't).
     
  13. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

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    Oh, I agree Elegy, the rules don't specifically state that, but what I'm seeing is that judges ARE taking points off for double commands and using things like handler error and "pleading" (which I too find hilarious) to justify the points off.

    I doubt you'd see a judge take points off for a quiet "stay" like you describe - for one, in most of the venues I've been in, they'd have to be right on top of us to hear it (loud indoor venues), but also that would be hard to justify with something like "slow to respond". But things like "down, down, down" are most definitely getting penalized now in AKC which I think is a good thing!

    Where I get annoyed is when the dog who downs the first time and is a little crooked is penalized and the dog who downs slowly after 3 cues but is straight is not penalized. So I'm definitely happy about judges being tougher and fairer.

    Basically what I'm understanding to be going on in judges training is that they're wanting there to be less of a discrepancy between transitioning from Rally to regular obedience and they're trying to align the two more realistically.

    TBH, I feel like if you can treat the dog in APDT, then the judging should be tougher. I haven't decided how I feel about the treats in the ring thing yet... I do know that a longer course would be the death of me - I can barely remember a course as it is, and sometimes I get so nervous in the ring that I literally cannot read the signs, I have to go off the "foot" memory of having walked the course!
     
  14. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    Kind of a side note but since you are considering APDT rally just be aware that APDT the organization is selling it's Rally-O. Hard to say where it will all go in the future.
     
  15. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    Note: movements on the APDT rally front. Word is USDAA won the bid and will own the future of APDT rally...if so this should be interesting to see! Could be very good but time will tell.
     
  16. Red.Apricot

    Red.Apricot Active Member

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    We went to two classes before going into the ring the first time, and we were just fine; AKC, score of 91. The judge was really nice, though--there was a sign I'd never seen before, lol, and I had to ask her what it was during the walk-through and she showed me, which was super cool. I'm really enjoying rally so far.
     

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