Questions for bully & APBTA 'type' owners

Muttkip

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#82
One of the reason I'm sooo leery about getting an APBT as much as I wanted one and have put in a lot of time researching them. It's not the dogs, it's how divided the breed as a whole is. Hince why I'm now looking at American Bulldogs and Labs.
 

Tahla9999

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#84
I guess I'll just stop calling my dogs pit bulls then because clearly they aren't hard-core enough for the name. God forbid not every dog be an excessively hot idiot.

Changing breeds was one of the smartest things I ever did, and very little of it has to do with the dogs themselves. Honest to god.
Aint.That.The.Truth.
 

Red Chrome

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#88
Then you my friend have been lucky.

I fully agree with Adrianne and Elegy, AND I still own an APBT and plan on adding an AST in the future. The attitudes of certain breeders and people in the breed is worse than I have ever seen and I own a working GSD and the GSD world is horrid.

The nasty attitude from a lot of breeders and owners of APBTs is sickening. If they all pulled their heads out of their butts and concentrated on ACTUALLY HELPING the breed, the breed as a whole would be better.

People need to get off their high horses, especially when they have a closet full of dogs that could be exposed. No one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes, smart people usually don't repeat them though!
 
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#89
When someone with two merle border collies that does flyball says the best thing she ever did was get out of pit bulls because of the people, I believe it.

Border Collie politics are some of the ugliest I've seen and I'm not in the breed, but that's got nothing on the glimpses I see into the APBT world that a couple of my friends live in.

There's some pretty nasty going ons in the online C/Koolie world right now but again, nothing that would ever make me feel like Katie and Adrianne are saying. There are politics and really crummy people in every breed. But some sure seem to take it above and beyond.

ETA: You know I wasn't bashing your merles Katie, I like them too much.
 

Tahla9999

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#91
I'm going to tell you my reasons, not speaking for the others on here, on why I hate the pit bull community. This is going to be kinda long.

I think every breed needs to have a good community behind it for the breed to be successful. They need people to breed these dogs correctly, make known of bad breeders within the breed, preserve to breed whether by standard and/or working, breed healthy dogs, help rescue their breed if these dogs in up in a shelter, maintain the lines, etc. Yes, many breeds are split between show and working communities, but even then both of them have the breed's best interest in heart even though they may have a different direction to go by it.

The APBT community I don't even... There is just so much confusion, so many lies, so many different opinions on what this breed really is. The breed is a complete mess. You have so many sides blaming the other side for why the breed is like this way and neither can agree on a solution to the problem because the divide is TOO wide to ever agree on anything.

I mean, you have one side who, bless their hearts, come into the breed because of the bad rap and they want to be advocates or the breed, but they are advocating that it is all on how you raise them. A lot of people are preaching this message, which goes against ALL dog breeds, but when you have a highly potential DA breed who already has a bad rap to began with, this can do some serious damage. How many horror stories that I have of unsuspecting owners who puppy pit bull went from dog loving to dog hating in one day time. And unfortunately, with these dogs tendency to sometimes attack completely unprovoked, you have a lot of hurt and confuse owners who are thinking maybe there is something to the myth after all.

Then you have the traditionals who feel these dogs should be breed the way they always been breed, even if it is now illegal. These people blame the pet pit bull owners and pet pit bulls for the attacks on people. They also give out a lot of crap that these dogs were better in the fighting days because fighting them supposedly guaranteed a people friendly dog. Some even advocate that these dogs aren't even meant to be just pets and do normal dog related activities like dogs sports or being taken out of the public because these are are so hot. This community also doesn't health test their dogs, despite the fact that these breeds are full of health problems.

I have a lot of problems with this viewpoint for many reasons.Of course, I believe dog fighting is deplorable and anyone who advocates it advocates animal abuse. And also because I don't think fighting dogs create a stable breed. This might be an unpopular view point, and it goes against a lot of what we advocate with the whole "human aggressive dogs were culled" argument, but the truth is, that is a huge bold face lie. I mean, think about it. Why in the world does a breed who was supposedly bred against human aggression, have twice the fatal attacks of that of a the mismanaged guardian breed, the rottweiler. It doesn't make sense! You can blame backyard breeding but plenty of breeds, from the german shepherd to the labrador, have large amount of backyard breeding going and you don't see the large amount of fatal attacks from them. Hell, the last time I've heard of a fatal attack involving a lab was done by a lab puppy. And yes, I do keep in check of dog fatalities. A breed bred AGAINST human aggression should be a lot more rock solid in temperament with humans to the point where it should be hard to get a truly HA dog from the breed.

But the truth is, the man biters weren't culled, or at least, not all of them. It depended on the dog fighter, and more likely than not a pit bull who prove himself in the pit and is HA will get bred again. Some of the most celebrated fighting dogs in history were known to be human aggressive and bred many times. And the attacks written in the past about these dogs from the champion fighters point to an extreme unstableness in the breed that went beyond just animal aggression.

The all famous Zebo

"Unfortunately one day Zebo attacked Adam’s son removing his ear and Adam’s wife made him get rid of Zebo so he sold him to Mr. Johnson. Johnson got Zebo to take part in another 2 fights and then retired him undefeated from fighting at the age of 7 and put him to stud. Zebo died at the age of 13"

July-August 1976
4th Match C. Beasley vs Starsky & Hutch M65 Ref. B. Clouse
Beasley's red and white handled by Joe Alvarado. Hutch handling a black. At the scales, while weighing the red and white, who is a bad man-eater, Alvarado lost control of the dog and headed right for Earl Maloney and bit him in the chest. Bill Carr kicked him loose and was bitten himself, very bad, just above the rib cage. That big crazy dog then headed for the crowd with his mouth wide open. Some one could have been seriously hurt if Bill Carr hadn't intercepted again, this time getting bit on the leg, through his boot. They finally got the dog under control and the match was on. Alvarado got fouled out for some bad handling in his corner and the Winner: Starsky & Hutch's black dog.
It would be a good idea to muzzle know man-eaters to prevent something like this from happening again.
Reported by Bobby D. Smith


"Back In The Ole Bulldog Days These Manbiters Were Eliminated Immediately."
I hear this over and over again, so let me just ask who, specifically, ever culled a game "man-biter" back in "The Ole Bulldog Days?"
Earl T never minded feeding man-biters, even though his wife's legs were covered with bite scars. Some of Tant's dogs would just as soon eat you as look at you. I understand Burns' dogs were even worse.
I'd like to see someone step foot on V Jackson's yard if he wasn't around.
Carver kept his share of "man-biters," as did many many other famed dogmen.
In most cases, if a dog was good enough to win, it was good enough to live, regardless of who it wanted to have for dinner.
ROCKY ALEXANDER, APBT historian and former APBT breeder


Virgil was a fairly easy going pup, but became almost uncontrollable when he got excited, and on one occasion, while the 10 month old pup was in a rage, tried to bite the Gambler, and actually torn the shirt off of Gambler's back as he tried to get away from the angry pup. Gambler thought very seriously about putting the dog down, but instead decided to roll him. Evidently he liked what he saw and by the tender age of just over 18 months, Virgil became a 1X winner.


The story of Bullyson, who was reportedly so HA that his handlers were terrified of him. Oh, but he still known far and wide as one of the greated pit dogs.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/93304764/The-Legend-of-Bullyson


I know every one of us have read the dog attacks where the dogs were reported to attack completely unprovoked. Yeah, most of us, including me, doubted and and thought that the owners just miss the signs or the victim actually did something to make it happen. Well, the APBT is one of the few breeds known to attack other dogs unprovoked. Is it really too hard to believe that an APBT with human aggression in his genes could possibly, completely unprovoked, attack a human being. And these dogs definitely were not seen in a good light back in the "good ol days." I found out there were places who wanted to ban these dogs back as far as 1918 due to attacks on people and their pets. Many of the stories I hear today were the exact same stories back then. A dog who played with the neighbors children before and was oh so friendly suddenly, out of the blue, attack a child. And the people were left utterly confused about why.

There is a problem with the breed when one of the founders of the breed, the oh so famous John Colby, had one of his fighting dogs attack and kill his visiting nephew. This guy made many books off the breed and was one of the first people who sold this breed to public hands. There is a problem within the breed when, in the fighting days, you have pictures likes this



being displayed in the newspaper. There is a very dangerous, unstable element in the breed that needs to be recognize.

Continue...
 

Tahla9999

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#92
So whose fault is, really, for the APBT demise? The truth is every fault in this breed lies with the creators, dog fighters of this breed. Yet that that half of community gets mad if you disrespect them, saying they made these dog what they are. This breed, if human aggressive, is very dangerous, more so than the average dog due to their high tolerance for pain and determination so if your in their grip, they aren't going to let go. They fail these dogs by breeding in these human aggressive pit bulls, only caring about the dog's fighting ability. They fail these dogs when, in the 1980s when dog fighting was finally a felony in all states, many of them began breeding these and selling them to any dick and jane for profit since they are no longer can make money off of them fighting, so why not sell puppies. This is the time when attacks grew tremendously, due to these people selling out the breed. Oh, but will the other community acknowledge that that is bad? NOPE! There is a guy by the name of Tom Garner, a past dog fighter who is well liked in the breed because of his contribution to APBT history, who has, on average, TWELVE litters a year and has been doing this for YEARS now. Go ahead, look him up. Anyone can get a game-line APBT as long as you have the money. And you know what. MANY pit bull people defend him because of his historical contributions to the breed and feel it wrong to criticize him. I had a guy argue to me that it is bad for people to breed pit bulls willy nilly, yet is is perfectly find for this man to do it since at least he is breeding out true ones! How can you ration with people like this! People take his dogs and bred them and you have his dogs all over the country. And there were many others like him who also had huge breeding grounds.

And you have many people who advocate breeding them true even though it is illegal. You know what happens? These dogs are hidden in the backwaters or deep in forests, isolated from all people except those who take care of them, just so they can keep finding them and breeding them true. You know what happens to these dogs? More unstable, unsocial temperaments created for these dogs. People hell these dogs will become a shell of what they are, and yet the dogs that are being produce this was are extremely unsocialize, creating many different temperaments. Many of them VERY fearful. I'm not the only pit bull person who notice an increase in fearfulness in this breed. There was a recent dog fighting bust in Alabama and my humane society took in two of the dogs. I swear man, these dogs are just... sad. They are very small, wouldn't look out of the place in an ADBA show, and yet, they are so scared of people. Now I've seen my handful of fearful dogs. This was different. These dogs didn't know what to do. They don't react to anything a person does. They don't know whether to wag their tail around people. They don't know how to play. I took one of them out to play in the yard. One of the people who has been working with these dogs for a couple of weeks now came out to check on the dog. The dog acknowledge his presence, but didn't wag the tail or nothing. She just didn't know what to do. In my opinion this dog was a shell of a dog. And that's what happens when people isolate dogs from the rest of the world. There are people welling to sacrifice the temperament of the APBT just so they can have a dog who can go hours in a pit!! Again, how can you reason with these people!

So you have these dogs being bred and given to any dick and jane and people defending this rather than (like most breed communities would) vilify these people. You have these people who want to keep these dogs game and keep these dogs isolated from most people and the temperaments they are producing just keep getting worse. You have the health of the breed going down the hill because many pit bull people refuse to health test. You have many unstable HA APBTs and people making excuses for it and blaming one another. You have people who are in wonderland about the breed and will argue you down if you dare suggest these dogs could become DA. There is no togetherness, no common solution, and this breed is paying for it.

This breed needs to be breed with a BOMB PROOF temperament. Any iffiness shown by these dogs should not be tolerated at all. Human Aggression needs to be eliminated entirely. When breeding, keep dog aggression in mind. Maybe not against dog aggression entirely, but if you have a dog who can't function when they are near dogs at all, than maybe it is best for that dog not to be bred. Spread the word of bad breeders so that others can avoid it. Ban together and try to rescue and keep these dogs out of novice hands. Health test these dogs so that their health can approve. This I can hope for. This will most likely never happen.

Which is why I can't stand this community and feel oh so bad for the dogs because it is just going to get worse.

Sorry about the length but I've been holding this in for while.
 

Barbara!

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#93
Please show me statistics where pit bulls have twice the attacks than other dogs...or the Rottweiler. (Not trying to be a smartass, actually wondering.) It could have something to do with the fact that nowadays, people consider pit bulls to be every dog with a big head. So you're going to have statistics for bites for a lot of different breeds of dog...but they're all called pit bull. The decline of this dog breed is definitely from back yard breeding. This type of dog attracts the "gangsters" who use these dogs as a status symbol...and breed them out of control.

For instance, American Bullies. They are called put bulls and they are what the general public considers to be the TRUE pit bull. But most of these behemoth dogs are mixed with dogs like the neo mastiff... A dog that is human aggressive to strangers by nature. When you breed dogs like that all willy nilly, you get unstable animals, especially when they are not contained properly. And this is 90% of American Bullies. At least most people know what a German Shepherd looks like. So when they breed, they're breeding two of the same thing together...in most cases. Less of a chance of some sort of unstable balance. But with the pit bull...back yard breeders are breeding god-knows-what to god-knows-what-else because none of them have a **** clue what breeds they're breeding together. They think they're pit bulls...but could they be American Bulldogs? Cane Corsos? Presas? The huge problem here is misidentification. Ignorance. And they're breeding them.
 

Teal

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#94
Bite statistics are not reliable because, as Barbara pointed out, breed identification is not reliable. So that argument isn't going to hold up to anyone with a lick of sense.

I've had my fair share of experiences in the breed. I've experienced dogs who wouldn't even finish a fight if jumped by another dog, dogs who wouldn't think to start something but sure would finish it, and dogs who were just itchin to jump another dog. The thing of it is - the three levels, and everything inbetween, are fully interchangeable in a single dog. I think it's ridiculous to believe that your dog can never be involved in a scuffle, if you allow that dog to interact on any level with other dogs - regardless of the behaviour your dog has previously shown and regardless of breed. We're talking about living, breathing animals with their own brains - ANYTHING is possible. But when you've got a dog that is a living, breathing COMBAT MACHINE - you need to be a little bit more aware of what situations you're putting that animal into. Some will tell you the only way to prevent a fight is to never let dogs interact - so be it. Others will tell you that fights are inevitable if you own multiple dogs, and all you can do is be the most prepared you can be to handle a fight involving the particular dogs you have. What it comes down to is - What level of responsibility can you handle, to ensure your dogs stay safe? If you can't handle the idea of breaking up a scuffle, or recognizing one is about to happen and separating dogs, and potentially keeping certain dogs apart for the rest of their lives... Either have ONE dog, or don't throw an APBT into the mix. Plain and simple.

As for human aggression - Do I believe maneaters were culled 100% in the "old days" ? No, I do not. I do believe that a good dog was a good dog, often times "despite" something less desirable. In a far-less detrimental example - My Saluki. According to the AKC show ring, his head has too much top skull. But, he is an exceptional hunter. So - Should he be kept from the breeding pool because of one fault certain people might not give a **** about but others find CRUCIAL? Or should he be bred because he can FUNCTION, so be damned whatever might be a negative trait so long as it doesn't affect his performance? If you look at the conformation of gamedogs... they're a MESS. Weak pasterns, cow hocked, out at the elbows, bowed front legs... none of that mattered, so long as they could do what was needed when it came down to it. I don't believe every dogman was willing to feed a manbiter... but I have come to realize that there are some dark corners of the breed's history that need light shone upon them. Now, with that being said - I don't think modern day "supporters" of the breed allow for ANY dog aggression. So, in properly bred lines, the occurrence of a manbiter should be very seldom seen. And by properly bred, I mean the research done into the pedigrees - because breeding a litter isn't like mixing two buckets of paint. You're talking about generations upon generations of lineage, and the result can be from anywhere down the line. That lack of understanding how breeding works, and the history of the dogs being bred... THAT is why the breed has manbiters still today. Oh, and also the people overcompensating for their own egos by intentionally breeding manbiters... there's one in every crowd that does the unthinkable stupid, right?

And to top it off, we don't just have the anti-Pit Bull people to worry about... The APBT "world" is horrendous, too. It's divided, with a good 2/3rds of the participants doing more harm than good... and the other 1/3 is too self righteous to give a **** about what anyone else is doing. Such is the fate of a breed with such a decorated history, and with such outstanding versatility... the more "circles" that are aware of the breed, the more drama that comes into play and the less likely it is that those circles will all agree on a common goal for the breed.

 

AdrianneIsabel

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#95
I've yet to have people in any other breed fight viciously about the stupidest things. For example, "there is no PIT BULL", "Your dog is a rescue, you have no right to call it a pit bull!" , "your sport dog is not doing any good for the breed, my chain dog who's blahblahblah is much better for the breed even if he never leaves the yard.", "AST arent worthy of discussion.", "APBT can out win any dog at any sport any day, we just choose not to prove it because sports r teh dumz.", "there is no need to health test." (not singular to this breed but still comical and another vicious fight starter), "ADBA dogs are allowed to act like out of control fools because, just because, you don't need a reason. Dogs who are in control are robots."(yup, real logic.)

Then the out come of many of these have been personal information shared, threats on home and family, just trash and more trash. Sometimes it's fun to argue logistics and semantics but it's like arguing fountain pens with crayons, you walk away feeling smug and yet so very sad for the state of the breed.

No other breed so desperately needs unity and yet this breed will never see it between the fan boys and martyrs. The regular Joes who never seem to find themselves in these extremes are doing more for the breed than the other two would ever like to admit, in the end maybe it's just an issue of pride.
 

Tahla9999

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#96
Yeah, I don't think the "nobody can identify the pit bull" thing holds much water, either. If you look at what occurs following a serious dog bite, more likely than not animal control is going to confiscate the animal. The idea that animal control, people who deal with many breeds and their mixes, would have a hard time identifying the pit bull, doesn't fly. Not to mention that the owner will confirm whether or not the dog is a pit bull. The only cases where that may hold true is if the dog is a stray so no owner will identify the breed, and you have to depend solely on the people who pick up the animal. As far as dog fatalities go, something that occurs rarely, the news are even more aware of the dog breed. For example, there was a fatality done by American Bulldogs that was reported as such. The news would let a little tidbit here that they are cousins of the pit bull, but they still identified the breed as such. Most of the time they almost always provide a picture of the dog. I like to make sure the dogs in question are actually pit bulls and sorry to say, the media tend to get it right. In my area, not sure if it was by county or by state, it was reported that of the breed involve in dog bites, 21% was by pit bulls, while the next largest was german shepherds and labs tying at 4%. Every year, the dogs who end up killing are usually a repeat. You have the unidentified mixed breed, huskys, german shepherds, rottweliers and pit bulls. I'm going to try to find the statistics and post it.

As for human aggression - Do I believe maneaters were culled 100% in the "old days" ? No, I do not. I do believe that a good dog was a good dog, often times "despite" something less desirable. In a far-less detrimental example - My Saluki. According to the AKC show ring, his head has too much top skull. But, he is an exceptional hunter. So - Should he be kept from the breeding pool because of one fault certain people might not give a **** about but others find CRUCIAL? Or should he be bred because he can FUNCTION, so be damned whatever might be a negative trait so long as it doesn't affect his performance? If you look at the conformation of gamedogs... they're a MESS. Weak pasterns, cow hocked, out at the elbows, bowed front legs... none of that mattered, so long as they could do what was needed when it came down to it. I don't believe every dogman was willing to feed a manbiter... but I have come to realize that there are some dark corners of the breed's history that need light shone upon them. Now, with that being said - I don't think modern day "supporters" of the breed allow for ANY dog aggression. So, in properly bred lines, the occurrence of a manbiter should be very seldom seen. And by properly bred, I mean the research done into the pedigrees - because breeding a litter isn't like mixing two buckets of paint. You're talking about generations upon generations of lineage, and the result can be from anywhere down the line. That lack of understanding how breeding works, and the history of the dogs being bred... THAT is why the breed has manbiters still today. Oh, and also the people overcompensating for their own egos by intentionally breeding manbiters... there's one in every crowd that does the unthinkable stupid, right?

And to top it off, we don't just have the anti-Pit Bull people to worry about... The APBT "world" is horrendous, too. It's divided, with a good 2/3rds of the participants doing more harm than good... and the other 1/3 is too self righteous to give a **** about what anyone else is doing. Such is the fate of a breed with such a decorated history, and with such outstanding versatility... the more "circles" that are aware of the breed, the more drama that comes into play and the less likely it is that those circles will all agree on a common goal for the breed.
I get what your saying, but I think an error like a standard fault is nothing like breeding very HA and unstable dogs who are suppose to be human friendly. Even if the dogs were proven game, it should not have happen, or it should have happen rarely by less-than-stealer dog fighters. But the thing is, even the so call greats bred man-eaters/man-biters. When you look at the amount of off spring these aggressive pit bulls have, like Bolio with 106 registered off spring, and Zebo with 90, than you can't help but start to understand why you have so many extremely unstable pit bulls.

But I agree, we need more good breeders in this breed breeding for performance and temperament to fix this breed. The thing is, we don't have the right balance to do so. Due to the, and I'm blaming the dog fighter here, selling out the breed, TOO many people have this breed and a lot of them are breeding these dogs to make a quick buck. Then you have those here who are breeding fighting dogs, but the dogs temperaments are so over the place, many of them very weak and fearful. There is nothing you can do about this. I feel utterly helpless with this breed at times.
 

Mach1girl

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#97
Please show me statistics where pit bulls have twice the attacks than other dogs...or the Rottweiler. (Not trying to be a smartass, actually wondering.) It could have something to do with the fact that nowadays, people consider pit bulls to be every dog with a big head. So you're going to have statistics for bites for a lot of different breeds of dog...but they're all called pit bull. The decline of this dog breed is definitely from back yard breeding. This type of dog attracts the "gangsters" who use these dogs as a status symbol...and breed them out of control.

For instance, American Bullies. They are called put bulls and they are what the general public considers to be the TRUE pit bull. But most of these behemoth dogs are mixed with dogs like the neo mastiff... A dog that is human aggressive to strangers by nature. When you breed dogs like that all willy nilly, you get unstable animals, especially when they are not contained properly. And this is 90% of American Bullies. At least most people know what a German Shepherd looks like. So when they breed, they're breeding two of the same thing together...in most cases. Less of a chance of some sort of unstable balance. But with the pit bull...back yard breeders are breeding god-knows-what to god-knows-what-else because none of them have a **** clue what breeds they're breeding together. They think they're pit bulls...but could they be American Bulldogs? Cane Corsos? Presas? The huge problem here is misidentification. Ignorance. And they're breeding them.
:hail:
 

Mach1girl

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#99
Geeesh- this thread went far over the long weekend!

I believe there are indeed pitbulls who have a genetic fault which in turn can cause them to attack a human. I believe that MANY dogs can posess this fault. It must be a brain (MR) that does this. A true medical condition. Humans have MR as well. I think all of the creatures can have MR.


Yall do not even wanna hear my thinking on the matter of HA. Im just saying, I do not believe that the APBT has a higher chance of attacking unprovoked more so then ANY other dog out there. And I think it is sad that people publically anounce that they do now adays!

Im just sayin, that in allll my years of this breed, I have been bitten ONCE by an APBT and it was due to prey drive, not HA.

Working with, training, fostering, adopting, you name it-probably close to 100 APBT, and have never seen one HA by natural causes-

The closest I have seen is an old APBT who lives in a 4x4 kennel for 11 years with NO human interaction. He loves his daddy, loves any woman who comes around, but will bite the shoes of any man that visits. I blame this on no socialization.
 

Barbara!

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Yeah, I don't think the "nobody can identify the pit bull" thing holds much water, either. If you look at what occurs following a serious dog bite, more likely than not animal control is going to confiscate the animal. The idea that animal control, people who deal with many breeds and their mixes, would have a hard time identifying the pit bull, doesn't fly.
Actually, it really does. People who have been involved with this breed for decades don't know how to properly identify and separate bully breeds. Just like how most people don't know the difference between a Yorkie or a Silky, or every dog with black and tan MUST be a Rottie or Dobe mix... Common sense isn't common. Breed identification isn't easy, especially in bulldogs. To the general public and even to people who have been working with dogs their whole lives...Cane Corsos, American Bulldogs, Patterdale Terriers, Dogo Argentinos, Presa Canarios, American Staffordshire Terriers, American Bullies (etc.) are all pit bulls. And that can definitely get confusing.

Barbara, may I see your dogs pedigree? Im curious about how these things play into these discussions.
No pedigree. My pit bull is a product of a BYB. Which is surprising because she has near perfect conformation. I wish I had a ped on her.
 

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